F̷a̷j̷i̷n̷ Bao Fali in Xingyiquan

[D_Glenn]

In this clip you can see he’s using the Transverse Abdominal muscles (TVA) to round the lumbar and tuck the sacrum, called the Bolangjin (Crashing Wave Power), and then immediately using the TVA to return the lumbar and sacrum to the original/ normal position, the movement called Fanlangjin (Returning Wave Power). These names come from the idea of when you are about knee deep in an ocean the Crashing Waves can knock you down and push you up onto the beach, but then you get caught in the Returning wave and get dragged back down the beach and get hit by another Crashing wave and the cycle repeats.

[D_Glenn]

This is an extremely rare demonstration. There’s some videos of another Xingyiquan guy who demonstrates a little, and is then asked about what he’s doing, (these movements are also called dragon back tiger waist), but you can see him immediately back pedal and try to change the topic. I personally think he even lies to the interviewers a little bit to cover his mistake of showing it to foreigners.

[Appledog]

This is an extremely rare demonstration. There’s some videos of another Xingyiquan guy who demonstrates a little, and is then asked about what he’s doing, (these movements are also called dragon back tiger waist), but you can see him immediately back pedal and try to change the topic. I personally think he even lies to the interviewers a little bit to cover his mistake of showing it to foreigners.

You mean this?



I am not sure it is as secret as you say. My teachers never mentioned this kind of movement to me but seem to have demonstrated it. So I would say it is not secret, just closely guarded. Meaning, you can learn it, but maybe not everyone can learn it.

精诚所至，金石为开。 (Jīngchéng suǒ zhì, jīnshí wéi kāi.) Meaning, if you are sincere, the barriers will be removed.

[D_Glenn]

Definitely not that video. That’s a Taiji guy and I don’t know what he’s demonstrating.

It’s a video with Paul Andrews and they’re in China meeting with Xingyiquan people and learning a little bit from them.

I’m specifically talking about how Xingyiquan guys, in China, who still have to swear blood oaths to their teachers and never show outsiders this skill of using the spine to Fajin/ Fali. That’s why it’s rare.
In my Baguazhang my teacher has hundreds of hours of film demonstrating it in every movement and from multiple angles. He got a lot of grief from the Xingyiquan guys when they saw the first VHS tape back in 1997.

But I like trying to find other styles of Internal Martial arts that are doing the same thing as my school.

[G. Matthew Webb]

Isn't this the same thing that Bok Nam Park has been teaching since he came to the US decades ago?

[D_Glenn]

He does talk about dragon back but I don’t know if he’s actually doing this same thing. I think he might actually be doing something different which is a mechanic in Chinese martial arts where the spine is used like a whip and the sacrum is like the handle of the whip. There’s a style called Xinyiba that is a good example of the whip mechanism.

I met some students of Park Bok Nom in China at my teacher’s 80th birthday celebration/ seminar and they told me that Park definitely wasn’t doing the same thing with his spine, that we practice.

[ThomasK]

Tbh I can't see much difference between the Tai Chi guy and th Xing Yi guy.

Imo the the Tai Chi guy would have more difficulty producing an effect in the opponents body. It's difficult to create good force in his 2nd issuing. Looks like 3 weak impulses. Not sure what that's supposed to achieve.

In the Xing Yi video I can't see any tucking or untucking of the coccyx nor any appreciable spine movement. His move is definitely easier to produce good force in.

I wouldn't put it past the Chinese to have blood paths for some stuff lol. Sounds a bit ridiculous to me. You don't need any of this stuff to harm people.

Xenophobia

[D_Glenn]

The Bolangjin and Fanlangjin movements are just like every other movement in the IMA- they get refined, moving from Obvious to Hidden, then becoming Transformed/ Fully Integrated. (Ming, An, and Hua). My own current videos don’t look like I’m moving my spine. I have to use my 20 year old video clips to show something Obvious.

The XYQ and some other styles are kind of like gangs- blood in, blood out. Only in an IMA getting cast out from the school, never speaking to one’s teacher again, and being ostracized by the community is worse than the blood out portion. But I agree, it’s ridiculous. My teacher has witnessed a lot of great XYQ lineages die out because of their stubborn adherence to this tradition.

[Doc Stier]

What has been described on this thread, and demonstrated in the videos, is a natural byproduct of performing the movement correctly.

In my experience, no amount of self-directed intellectual or physical effort will produce the desired results without repeated explanation and demonstration by a good teacher who has already imbedded these methods in their own mind and body.

Thus, the initial gap between what to do and how to do it is only resolved through gradual correction and refinement of the body method and postures as directed by the teacher. Without submitting yourself to that process, you can practice any IMA style for decades and sadly still not achieve the goal.

[ParadoxTeapot]

Imo the the Tai Chi guy would have more difficulty producing an effect in the opponents body. It's difficult to create good force in his 2nd issuing. Looks like 3 weak impulses. Not sure what that's supposed to achieve.

Well, yeah, probably not best to use Ma Hong in this case.

If we wanted to see Fa Jin in that line, the easiest would be to look at Chen Yu. Ma Hong learned from Chen Yu's dad, but Chen Yu can actually Fa Jin.

https://youtu.be/zGRXaYbUCs4?si=GY2g1_trBd0-L69Z&t=26

[G. Matthew Webb]

D_Glenn, the action of the transverse abdominis is to compress the abdominal contents. I don't follow what you mean by it helps to "round your lumbar and tuck the sacrum" in the video clip of the Xingyi guy that you embedded in your first posting. I frankly don't see much spinal flexing and extension but mainly rotation but maybe that is a result of my inexperience in analyzing the movement. I would think that other muscles are involved in flexing and extending the spine. If you have knowledge of new research into the function and action of the transverse abdominis, please post so I can learn.

About Park's "dragon back" movement, he was filmed demonstrating it years ago, and I'm sure you can find examples on the web, and it was described in books and articles in the Pa Kua Chang journal all written by Dan Miller. Perhaps, Ken Fish could delineate the differences, if any, between your spinal movement and what Park does since he studied with Park for a while and has an intimate knowledge of Xingyi quan, Bagua zhang, and many other Chinese martial arts.

You mention Paul of Xingyi Academy. From his video teaching, he teaches a spinal wave which looks to be similar if not same to what you have described here and in other postings in this forum.

[D_Glenn]

Trust me I have explored and done everything that you have suggested. There might be some of that archived on here. But I think most of the threads about PBK were on the original Emptyflower forum.

Paul Andrews is indeed doing something extraordinary. I think there’s a thread about him as well. There’s also a mechanism in XYQ that is focused on the chest power. I would have to search for it. I don’t know any key words off the top of my head though.

[D_Glenn]

Of course there’s other muscles involved but we don’t want to gain control over those. The TVA though we want to gain control of to build and turn our Dantian (the function that you describe), but we also want semi-control over their isometric functions. The TVA are one of the primary muscles that are holding our lumbar spine upright. They are constantly working in an isometric manner. They have an unlimited supply of acetyl-coa. It’s this isometric power that one needs to learn to access. A person first needs to train a second posture (sacrum tucked, lumbar rounded, chest concaved. Similar to the fetal position when a person is laying on their side, only not nearly so dramatic and while standing up, which feels awkward.) Aka the Wuji posture. Then the TVA will become accustomed to also holding this position in a strong isometric manner. Then a person has to simply (not so simply) learn to, near instantly, spring from one position to the other.

[D_Glenn]

The ‘using the spine like a whip’ mechanic (there’s actually a name for it, I will have to find it), is done to directly add power into a person’s martial movements.

The Bolangjin mechanic, indirectly adds power to one’s martial movements. In fact it takes a couple years of practicing it until you will actually notice a difference in the power. It’s counterintuitive because it feels like you have your lower torso moving in the opposite direction of your strike.

The Bolangjin mechanic is only trying to jolt one’s abdomen, the fleshiest most gel-like part of one’s body. This jolt will generate a wave of flesh that can travel outward from the abdominal area. With countless hours and hours of practice you can learn to let this wave travel all the way out to your hand. Then synchronize your martial movements with the wave of flesh. It’s a self- teaching mechanism because only you can feel where the wave peters out, or is blocked abruptly. It helps to have a teacher on hand, but they can only offer you encouragement, because they can only offer instruction in the beginning on the mechanism to jolt the abdomen. The rest of it requires self teaching.

[GrahamB]

Like everybody else on this thread, I can't see any particular movement of the lumbar spine going on in that original video? If you want a video that demonstrates that, then why not use one that shows it beyond 'so refined you can't see it' level?

I can however see some really nice horizontal rotational control of the torso going on - what we'd call Dragon Body.

Personally, I dislike seeing Xing Yi without stepping, but I guess it's like a mid way point between stepping and Zhan Zhuang, so yeah, if that floats your boat, go for it.

When it comes to "spinal waves" I dislike that term as well. Sure, the energy can move in a wave like motion through the whole body... but I don't think the human spine has evolved to be used literally like a whip. Sounds like a great way to put your back or neck out and slip a disk to me. Now, use it like a bow? That's something else.

There are so many different ways of doing things in Xing Yi because it's split into different lineages and is so damn old that of course there are loads of different ways of doing it.