Wang Yan and Neutralization

[Trick]

This video is a good example that when you grab on your opponent's wrist, your tiger mouth should face toward yourself instead of to face toward your opponent.

Just to clarify , I didn’t post any video, I think that’s WW’s video.

But I agree with the wrist grip

[johnwang]

But I agree with the wrist grip

When you grab your opponent's wrist, you have to think about how he may break your grip apart. 99% of the time, your opponent will twist his arm against your thumb. When he does that, will that be toward your advantage, or will that be toward his advantage?

In this video, the way that you grab will force your opponent to twist his arm against your thumb. At that particular moment, it gives you a chance to move your hand from his wrist joint to his elbow joint.

[Trick]

Yes I began jujutsu when I was 8, getting out from wrist grips and all kind of falling practice was at the very first lesson, anyway in many Japanese Martial arts it’s so

[johnwang]

Yes I began jujutsu when I was 8, getting out from wrist grips and all kind of falling practice was at the very first lesson, anyway in many Japanese Martial arts it’s so

When A grab on B's wrist, who has advantage at that moment?

Many people believe B has advantage over A. I believe the opposite. The reason is simple. When B tries to break A's grip, A already takes his next move. In other words, A is always 1 step ahead of B.

For some unknown reason, this logic is not generally accepted in this forum.

When he rotates his arm and tried to break the grip, his opponent's right fist can already land on his face.

[wayne hansen]

I have know people who only grab u so you break the hold at that point they have already hit u
It took me time to workout how to deal with that
The first point is not to break away but use that point of contact to your advantage

[windwalker]

When A grab on B's wrist, who has advantage at that moment?

Many people believe B has advantage over A. I believe the opposite.
The reason is simple. When B tries to break A's grip, A already takes his next move. In other words, A is always 1 step ahead of B.

For some unknown reason, this logic is not generally accepted in this forum.

When he rotates his arm and tried to break the grip, his opponent's right fist can already land on his face.

I don't,,,,

you can believe anything you want, but you don't know...

I know, the one who filmed it...

You keep talking about fighting,,,, apparently not understanding the difference between training and fighting
In the all the clips you've posted, I have yet to see one of realtime speed, distance with out breaks

Are they training clips or fighting clips....?

[windwalker]

I have know people who only grab u so you break the hold at that point they have already hit u
It took me time to workout how to deal with that
The first point is not to break away but use that point of contact to your advantage

In the training clip, that was posted

It was meant to show a little of our training, and how my teacher taught
he in his 80s at the time of the clip....seems like its being mis interpreted as something else...
my mistake for posting it...

Real time usage as you mentioned, "at the point of contact" with what ever was contacted with, how ever it's done.
Depending on level it was pretty much over....

In "training" to understand how, and why this is so.

Things are done so people can train with out getting broken
for the most part...

[twocircles13]

Responding to some earlier posts.

What makes you feel its not there already ?

I don't see cut, sickle hook, inner hook, outer hook, shin bite, scoop kick, sticky lift, sweep, ... ever used in Taiji PH.

You can use your right leg to hook the

1. outside of your opponent's right leg (cut).
2. inside of your opponent's right leg (sickle hook).
3. inside of your opponent's left leg (inner hook).
4. outside of your opponent's left leg (outer hook).

That's already 4 basic "leg skill" there.

sickle hook:


scoop kick:

@johnwang There are several reasons. Let me address a couple of those.

First, in the OP’s video, and in the first Zhaobao video, these were done for show, so if the taiji expert captured his opponent’s leg, there might be the perception that he would be judged poorly skilled in his Taiji skills for having to resort to wrestling skills.

Second, related, the types of throws shown are more dramatic. Flying through the air is much more dramatic than just being “tripped," even if it was technically a very well performed throw.

Third, has to do with objectives. If my aim is to learn to throw people on the ground, I really should be studying a throwing sport, like Shuai Jiao, or wrestling, like Mongolian wrestling. Taijiquan trains a more subtle type of root manipulation, and depending on the teacher and student, goals may be very different ranging from cultural preservation to self-defense to preparation for learning archaic weaponry.

BTW, I thought the second Zhaobao clip was some of the better taijiquan I’ve seen in a while. Although I disagree with the appraisal of what’s happening here. At least if you think of this as storage and release, it’s unlikely you’ll ever learn how to do it. This is more what I am working on in push hands training.



Having said that, in my instructional tradition, push hands partners are positioned much closer than anything shown here. One should at the very least step in and split the opponent’s stance. We also use our legs to uproot or throw the opponent.

I also agree that one should understand the techniques of others, if for no other reason than for understanding of what they are trying to do, but also, iff appropriate, to incorporate into one’s own skill set.

[wayne hansen]

I meant to mention it earlier but the Zhao bao guy does not use his strength precisely
I have seen it and had it done on me to the same effect with less wasted energy

[twocircles13]

Depends on what you're doing and a lot of times it's very subtle.

It seems to me that in Taiji PH training, you can train in 2 different ways.

1. Let your opponent to push you around, you try to respond to his push.
2. You try to control/guide your opponent's arms to the place that can be to your advantage.

IMO 1 < 2.

Really it's both. Let them do what they want but make them regret it.

I’m going to say it’s neither. (2) is closer than (1), although I have seen (1) used as effective deception. It’s neither of those two choices, because as soon as the opponent touches me, if I’ve done my job, he feels uncomfortable, so he’s not in a position to push me around.

It’s not really (2) because you don’t really care about the opponent’s arms except as a gateway to his root and kinetic structure.

“Guiding" is sort of the wrong idea too. That’s like saying the trigger of a trap guides the prey to springing the trap. Sort of, but it’s not quite right. And, in taijiquan, there are traps everywhere, so anywhere he goes, he’ll spring a trap. I don’t need to guide him anywhere specific, and I am not planning to use a specific technique. He chooses what trap to spring and traps himself. I’ve learned to move in a way that this happens.

[twocircles13]

I meant to mention it earlier but the Zhao bao guy does not use his strength precisely
I have seen it and had it done on me to the same effect with less wasted energy

Do you mean the first Zhaobao video with the student in white soiling himself?

[wayne hansen]

Yes

[Trick]

I have know people who only grab u so you break the hold at that point they have already hit u
It took me time to workout how to deal with that
The first point is not to break away but use that point of contact to your advantage

Of course Jujutsu and Aikido and similar arts are not stupid, when one break or manipulate the grippers grip one do so with “footwork(leg skill )” so to one’s placement is out of an eventual oncoming strike and have the opponent in off balance position while oneself is in favorable position to use atemi

[wayne hansen]

The guy who showed me was a senior Chen tin Hung student
He did it while free style pushing
Believe me there was no escaping other than just leaving it there
Otherwise a swift hard punch was delivered

[origami_itto]

“Guiding" is sort of the wrong idea too. That’s like saying the trigger of a trap guides the prey to springing the trap. Sort of, but it’s not quite right. And, in taijiquan, there are traps everywhere, so anywhere he goes, he’ll spring a trap. I don’t need to guide him anywhere specific, and I am not planning to use a specific technique. He chooses what trap to spring and traps himself. I’ve learned to move in a way that this happens.

Yeah it's more like I'm just trying to "maintain conditions" and he's trying to disrupt them. So in that particular gif my mind is on my own "structure" primarily, when he makes the mistake of reaching over without clearing his hand, I don't know what's going on per SE but I know there's pressure so I try to move that, his lower hand is already stuck just because of the geometry. That creates a gap that my expansion fills and the more he tries to act against me the worse it goes for him.

So consciously, no, I'm not thinking "let me trap his hand" but the hand gets trapped regardless because the tiger took a wrong turn and fell in the hole I dug earlier.