Wang Yan and Neutralization

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:12 pm

origami_itto wrote:SO how about we compare with a Zhaobao beatdown?
Zhaobao Taiji quan 赵堡太极拳 push hand shi li demonstrated by Master Wang Qinsheng



That's some real faijin TiFang that a modern Chen stylist will never be able to replicate.... :D Going to lunch have fun y'all.

Fixed ^
I’m not an expert on the style but I don’t think Zhaobao guys learn how to Fajin like the Chen style. But there’s plenty of clips of Chen guys demonstrating both TiFang and Fajin, although not combined. Doing a Fajin (aka Bao Fali) while executing a Tifang is a total asshole thing to do, so that might be hard to find a clip of.
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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:16 pm

johnwang wrote:
origami_itto wrote: Image

Why didn't he use his left leg to control his opponent's back leg when he pushed? Why do you allow your opponent to have free legs if you can control it?

Just analyzing the video, his stance is already really wide after he captures the front leg. He would have to almost be doing the splits to get the back leg.
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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby Graculus on Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:42 pm

Zhaobao does have some interesting skills, tho. I have seen a couple of videos of older practitioners who have obviously developed something, a little different from the kind of heavy power commonly seen with Chen practitioners.
Here is an example:

[youtube] https://youtu.be/2A-tOnlWrAI?si=WhS5Lgu9JEWtOsgZ[/youtube]

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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby johnwang on Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:46 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Just analyzing the video, his stance is already really wide after he captures the front leg. He would have to almost be doing the splits to get the back leg.

If he only controls his opponent's leading leg, he should push his opponent to his side (his left side) instead of to push his opponent backward.

When you control your opponent's

- leading leg, you push him to the side.
- back leg, you push him back.



Image
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:47 pm

People keep asking me to post
Might be a better idea to ask some people not to post
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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:51 pm

Graculus you do realise it is the guy on the right pushing himself away
Last edited by wayne hansen on Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby Graculus on Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:07 am

Now you come to mention it….
Do you think he knows he’s doing that?
I don’t do push hands practice myself, (and rarely spend much time looking at PH videos) so I wondered if there was anything more to it.

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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:29 am

I don’t know why people do this
The first thing I teach my students is how get around things like this and use it to their advantage
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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby origami_itto on Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:38 am

We're not asking you to post...

We're saying with all the criticism you post you should post something for others to criticize.

But we understand if it's too scary for ya. :D
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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby Bao on Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:50 am

I don’t do push hands practice myself, (and rarely spend much time looking at PH videos) so I wondered if there was anything more to it.


There's a difference between "Push hands" and making it easy for a teacher to use their methods against you, or letting a teacher to use you to show off. To effortlessly throw away beginners and non-practitioners is something any advanced Tai Chi player should be able to do, but a senior student should have enough skill to not be pushed around that easily.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby Trick on Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:44 am

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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby origami_itto on Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:54 am

wayne hansen wrote:Graculus you do realise it is the guy on the right pushing himself away


Partially, right? But the one on the left has to be offering an equal amount of force, and you CAN see him adding some force.

It's the same thing I'm always talking about. The right side applies power, the left accepts it and loads themselves, releases it back into the right side.

Image

Now THAT is what Cheng Man Ching describes as ti fang with fa chin.

There are times, however, when a force comes from the
front causing one side of the triangle to collapse. What
then would be the result? It is illustrated in the following diagram.

As shown here when the force comes directly from the front and without
deviating to the sides or up or down,
we no longer talk about turning left
or right or cycling up or down as the
way to yield. We talk only about
receiving the attack. In T' ai Chi
Ch'uan, we use the opponent's strong
attack against him - which is what the Book oj Changes
describes as K'an, the trigram of "the Abyss" and the
hexagram of danger. This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in emptiness.

When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdomen,
which has absorbed and stored the force of his attack,
uses this power to attack his retreat. This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang. Fang means to
release. I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance. This fa-chin (releasing strength) is a
unique characteristic of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.


SO t'i-fang - uprooting strength, fa-chin - releasing strength.

Left side isn't just bracing and making the other push themselves off, they're accepting and re-issuing the force.
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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:24 am

If you understood it you could do but u don’t and u can’t
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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby origami_itto on Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:27 am

wayne hansen wrote:If you understood it you could do but u don’t and u can’t

thanks wayne, lmfao. :D

I know that feeling superior is very important to you so I will let you have that. :D

Though I'm pretty sure if YOU could do it you would have a video up...
Last edited by origami_itto on Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wang Yan and Neutralization

Postby GrahamB on Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:33 am

HEY - that was me in that video! 8-)
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