Wang Yan and Neutralization

[Steve James]

Afa the original vid, imo, it looks like what it is, not what people expect it to look.

If someone comes at you like that, either you can deal with it or not. That's your problem. If it doesn't end up looking refined, it means the skill levels aren't the same. My biggest complaint about the vid is that it's obvious the Chen guy seems unnecessarily angry. He's trying to humiliate the other guy.

Then again, if you piss someone off, you have to deal with the consequences. Back in the day, people would walk in to the school and you never knew what to expect.

[D_Glenn]

I never embroiled myself in those arguments, but I remember them. Lol
I’m by no means a Chen guy, or even a fan of Taiji. I’m just calling a Fig a Fig, and a Trough a Trough.

[everything]

dog chasing a squirrel versus a cat chasing a squirrel.

this is such a great phrase.

of course, even human elite athletes don't have a common house cat's level of reflexes

[D_Glenn]

Afa the original vid, imo, it looks like what it is, not what people expect it to look.

If someone comes at you like that, either you can deal with it or not. That's your problem. If it doesn't end up looking refined, it means the skill levels aren't the same. My biggest complaint about the vid is that it's obvious the Chen guy seems unnecessarily angry. He's trying to humiliate the other guy.

Then again, if you piss someone off, you have to deal with the consequences. Back in the day, people would walk in to the school and you never knew what to expect.

So you can tell a person’s mental state of mind through a short video clip? Careful, the CIA might be recruiting you for some studies.

True Transmission of skills comes from getting your ass handed to you. That guy was given a gift. Sometimes you have to try and steal it, and that guy managed to rob Wang Yan and then thanked him for it. That guy can now map out everything that was done to him.

I’ve been thrown hundreds of times, and a lot worse than he was. And I learned more from those experiences than I could ever learn from watching and practicing. There’s a CIMA saying, “You have to steal my art, to learn it.”

[origami_itto]

I never embroiled myself in those arguments, but I remember them. Lol
I’m by no means a Chen guy, or even a fan of Taiji. I’m just calling a Fig a Fig, and a Trough a Trough.

In a certain respect you're comparing show dogs to rescue mutts.

Wang Yan is an official representative of the government appointed official home of one of their proudest intangible cultural heritages. He's been drilling since he could get yelled at and respond by practicing, most likely.

Other guy is just some weekender that wants to be Yang Lu Chan or whatever, it's like not even the same level of gungfu by several orders of magnitude, no matter WHAT Wang is practicing.

Like you take a guy that plays pickup basketball, maybe he did a little high school or college ball, and then he goes to a clinic hosted by a mid-level NBA player and challenges him to 1 on 1, that's basically the level of outclassedness we're dealing with here in my opinion.

In the Yang writings they talk about rude people walking funny for the rest of their lives after getting thrown.

But I mean whatever, fuck around and find out, lol.

[D_Glenn]

I never embroiled myself in those arguments, but I remember them. Lol
I’m by no means a Chen guy, or even a fan of Taiji. I’m just calling a Fig a Fig, and a Trough a Trough.

In a certain respect you're comparing show dogs to rescue mutts.

Wang Yan is an official representative of the government appointed official home of one of their proudest intangible cultural heritages. He's been drilling since he could get yelled at and respond by practicing, most likely.

Other guy is just some weekender that wants to be Yang Lu Chan or whatever, it's like not even the same level of gungfu by several orders of magnitude, no matter WHAT Wang is practicing.

Like you take a guy that plays pickup basketball, maybe he did a little high school or college ball, and then he goes to a clinic hosted by a mid-level NBA player and challenges him to 1 on 1, that's basically the level of outclassedness we're dealing with here in my opinion.

In the Yang writings they talk about rude people walking funny for the rest of their lives after getting thrown.

But I mean whatever, fuck around and find out, lol.

I’m not comparing the skill of the student to the skill of the teacher, that the student paid money to learn from. (And, not to mention, who even knows what style of martial art the student does.)

Nor am I comparing the levels of skill between the youtuber/ commentator who stated he’s a Yang guy.
This has nothing to do with skills. I’m not comparing skills or techniques, or how hard the guy was thrown, etc. It’s the visible difference in an intrinsic body quality of movement. A movement that begins in the flesh and bones. The IMA are Muscle Tendon Changing exercises. Different training results in different Muscles and Tendons.

[origami_itto]

Nor am I comparing the levels of skill between the youtuber/ commentator who stated he’s a Yang guy.
This has nothing to do with skills. I’m not comparing skills or techniques, or how hard the guy was thrown, etc. It’s the visible difference in an intrinsic body quality of movement. A movement that begins in the flesh and bones. The IMA are Muscle Tendon Changing exercises. Different training results in different Muscles and Tendons.

I completely agree that different methods produce different results. See my comments above about Kao.

[Steve James]

I'm sure he was giving a lesson: I'm sure he wasn't teaching in the usual sense. But, hey, a lesson in humility is always good. The fact the guy kept getting up is a testament to him.

[D_Glenn]

There’s a reason why in CMA that they say it’s hard to learn a different style of martial art, or even a different lineage if you’re old. It’s because it’s hard to get the True Transmission from a teacher if you can’t take being thrown on the ground. And taking strikes or kicks is hard for any age. So an old guy can really only learn from observation. Not Transmission.

[wayne hansen]

My guess he is a Huang practitioner
The way he keeps going for the arm wrap looks like someone who has done a lot of what they call swinging arms
The thing that is wrong with the way they do it today is several parts are missing
These parts are thé sert up
To just wrap the arm like that leaves you at a great disadvantage
Both your arms are wrapped up and basically you have your back to someone with a free arm
In pushing you can be just slightly better than your opponent and make him look like a fool
The thing I see is the use of an over the top attitude that shows up the victors lack of ability
Especially in the last backslam even in rugby league that is banned
Now him going up against another sports professional like a first grade Rugby League player of an MMA Fighter
That would be interesting
Who is the guy knocking out all the tai chi guys
Might be a good next match

[yeniseri]

As the “expert,” you don’t always know how skilled, fast, or strong your opponent is, so you have to take advantage of the opportunities offered, take short cuts and often demonstrate a lower level of skill than you actually possess. I would call this upper low skill level. There are some taijiquan principles shown, but much of it is sloppily executed and seems to get worse as it goes along. There is certainly no teaching or training shown, just domination.
As you can tell, I don’t care for this kind of demo.

There is no doubt that the European fellow was incapable of judging the skill of Wang Yan and he was incapable of doing that per the initial encounter.

What I see is Wang Yan using the many principles (remember neutralizing (hua)) we jibbah jabbah about but when we see it, there are
those of us who give the thumbs down to the skill claiming it isn't real taiji! I just don't get Domination is the game when the
student fails to understand the lesson and attempts to push forward an agenda unrelated to the gathering.
The "beat down" was just that, when the student at the seminar/workshop decided he wanted to 'Bogart' the lesson and exert something he
never initially possessed. Many get confused in the comparison of tuishou (rolling hands/push hands) not realizing it is one step
in a level and type of sensitivity training vs the' pure martial' element of na, shuai, kao, etc when put to its origin art, no longer considered so
because of many factors of being defanged on many levels and the entry of gymnastic performance and fitness/exercise criteria!

I am not sure how different my experience is, or has been but here is my exposure per utility, function, application of principles:
a. ting (jin) - listening
b. hua (jin) - neutralizing
c. na (jin) - seizing
d. fa (jin) issuing

[Bhassler]

Wang Yan is a student of Chen Ziqiang. Having pushed with both Chen Ziqiang and with a student of Chen Yu, I can say that their methods are not at all similar, in application or otherwise. It's easy to see if you've trained in the methods in question.

As far as the actual beatdown, it is neither a teaching moment nor a "correction" in behavior. If you see the original video, Wang Yan does the first hard throw, and then immediately sweeps the other guy as soon as he gets back up. If it were a "correction", he would have given the other guy an opportunity to fix his attitude before putting him down again. The beatdown continues to escalate after that- Wang Yan is simply determined to make the other guy quit. It's straight up tough-guy posturing and ego stroking. You can see Chen Ziqiang do the same sort of thing in other videos. It's a good example of why you don't fuck around outside your school unless you know the other person well or are willing to go all the way.

[wayne hansen]

It can be a bit like the old no contact Karate
Go in punch the guy in the face loose half a point
Doing that you gain at advantage where you soon make up the half point lost
The guy here thinks it’s pushing like he has expierence before
The other guy thinks it’s full on wrestling
If the other guy goes away and trains for those rules it might change

[origami_itto]

So I came upon this interesting sample of Wang Yan at a workshop/seminar a few years back and his style
(combat applications) reminds me of Chen Yu, and Ren Guangyi. Wang Yan's level of neutralization and 'sinking
into emptiness' through structural and sensory (ting jin) is a skill that I have never been able to duplicate so I
remain amazed at my low level of nothingness and laziness.

The choice of words in describing the opponent as 'forcing an issue' while attempting to overcome a thing shows
a wall that is usually thrown up and not being able to read the others' resilience or manner of relating to the unknow, is seen
very plainly

SO how about we compare with a Zhaobao beatdown?

Zhaobao Taiji quan 赵堡太极拳 push hand shi li demonstrated by Master Wang Qinsheng

That's some real faijin that a modern Chen stylist will never be able to replicate.... Going to lunch have fun y'all.

[Steve James]

Calm and cold-blooded, he's very sensitive with great timing.