Dai Xin Yi Quan and Xing Yi Quan (why the difference?)

[Craig]

JB:

The Ji Bu ZHuang i know is much like this:



only a little more twisted up and the left hand in that picture is instead down by the waist (there is a picture of lu song gao doing it somewhere, it was part of the same series as this picture). at any rate it appears mightily different to San Ti in my opinion - unless im confused and you are talking of a different ji bu zhuang.

Kris:

We have this teaching of alignments between movements and organs, and the five basic movements that line up with the 5 organs are the movements i practice most (they are single palm, bear swings arms, cat washes face, chicken walk and big chop). Im not sure which lines of practice this training comes from, but my late grandteacher who was a student of Lu Songgao talked of it in some detail, and he has also mentioned it in some of his writings.

[Josealb]

Craig,

I think Jon's referring to something specific to Dai xinyi.

[edededed]

Ah, gotcha Jon. One note, though - angles for body/feet depend on the xingyiquan teacher (I have seen various teachers do different things).

[I-mon]

no no he's talking about XYLH. long diao bang is basically like the picture craig showed. there are some pictures of felipe in his little walkthrough here:

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/felipe/liuhechicken.html

body twisted to 90 degrees, both feet pointing straight ahead. also done with the body twisted the other way, opposite shoulder in front. hand positions vary. but this is usually a stepping practice. with my xylh teacher we would practice a lot of movements like eagle seizing or hair combing from a similar stance which i think is what jon's describing, just like the pictures but with the back foot flat and holding most of the weight, not sitting so low, both feet pointing straight ahead with the thighs pulled together, body turning 90 degrees back and forth to either side.

[Josealb]

Now im confused....because Jon said "...aka "san chi shi" 3/7 posture). This is almost identical to san ti shi...".

Jay. Clear it up.

[I-mon]

check my edit

[Josealb]

Yeah im familiar with it, but like you, only as a stepping exercise. Never for standing. Thats what called my interest in the first place.

[I-mon]

the long diao bang we'd always do as a stepping exercise, but for things like ying zhua and the different hair combing type stuff we'd just stand in the 7/3 back weighted stance without stepping. never did it as a pure standing practice though.

[taijiren]

Regarding the "wu xing quan" and TCM theory, I don't believe this belief was there traditionally, in regard to the organs. I asked Shifu (Yan Long Chang) about it and he said he has never heard of it. So I really don't think Dai Xin Yi Quan has this belief.

Just as a further data point, Li Tailiang (who's Dai style comes from Zhao Shourong and Wang Yinghai), has taught a qigong version (which he also referred to as the an jing version) of the Dai 5 elements where he linked specific elements with specific fingers, sounds, and organs.

[taijiren]

no no he's talking about XYLH. long diao bang is basically like the picture craig showed. there are some pictures of felipe in his little walkthrough here:

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/felipe/liuhechicken.html

I'm curious....is it standard to step directly forward without lifting the leg? Yang Fansheng teaches a version of this where the rear foot, as it's stepping forward, lifts up and extends such that the toes almost touch the leading hand. Is that a common variation?

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

So, Santi...front foot points forward..back foot points sideways (90 angle, the familiar 45, or Dai style straight ahead?). Whole side of the torso and waist lookin sideways, shoulders in line with the heels?

This is very interesting (personal reasons). One dumb question, Jon....you train it both sides?

Also, whats going on with the hands?

Xing Yi san ti shi as I was taught, had the rear foot pointing 45, front toed in around 15 degrees. XYLHQ, the rear foot is pointing straight ahead and the front is toed in around 15 also. Dai hu bu (gong bu) rear pointing straight ahead and same with the front (though can also be in 15 also).

Jon.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

JB:

The Ji Bu ZHuang i know is much like this:



only a little more twisted up and the left hand in that picture is instead down by the waist (there is a picture of lu song gao doing it somewhere, it was part of the same series as this picture). at any rate it appears mightily different to San Ti in my opinion - unless im confused and you are talking of a different ji bu zhuang.

Kris:

We have this teaching of alignments between movements and organs, and the five basic movements that line up with the 5 organs are the movements i practice most (they are single palm, bear swings arms, cat washes face, chicken walk and big chop). Im not sure which lines of practice this training comes from, but my late grandteacher who was a student of Lu Songgao talked of it in some detail, and he has also mentioned it in some of his writings.

The picture you posted is of Lu Song Gao in gui bu (kneeling stance), wait I see if I have the picture somewhere, I will have to send it to someone to put up.

Jon.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

no no he's talking about XYLH. long diao bang is basically like the picture craig showed. there are some pictures of felipe in his little walkthrough here:

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/felipe/liuhechicken.html

body twisted to 90 degrees, both feet pointing straight ahead. also done with the body twisted the other way, opposite shoulder in front. hand positions vary. but this is usually a stepping practice. with my xylh teacher we would practice a lot of movements like eagle seizing or hair combing from a similar stance which i think is what jon's describing, just like the pictures but with the back foot flat and holding most of the weight, not sitting so low, both feet pointing straight ahead with the thighs pulled together, body turning 90 degrees back and forth to either side.

Long diao bang (dragon interchanges shoulders) is different again. that is a shoulder striking move, I was more referring to the theory of the body and it's ability to change.

Jon.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Regarding the "wu xing quan" and TCM theory, I don't believe this belief was there traditionally, in regard to the organs. I asked Shifu (Yan Long Chang) about it and he said he has never heard of it. So I really don't think Dai Xin Yi Quan has this belief.

Just as a further data point, Li Tailiang (who's Dai style comes from Zhao Shourong and Wang Yinghai), has taught a qigong version (which he also referred to as the an jing version) of the Dai 5 elements where he linked specific elements with specific fingers, sounds, and organs.

I am not too sure with the Xin Yi Dao curriculum, but I know it varies considerably from what I do. Even in Qi Xian/Shanxi many teachers are making up more forms. My teacher has never felt the need to change anything.

Jay.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

no no he's talking about XYLH. long diao bang is basically like the picture craig showed. there are some pictures of felipe in his little walkthrough here:

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/felipe/liuhechicken.html

body twisted to 90 degrees, both feet pointing straight ahead. also done with the body twisted the other way, opposite shoulder in front. hand positions vary. but this is usually a stepping practice. with my xylh teacher we would practice a lot of movements like eagle seizing or hair combing from a similar stance which i think is what jon's describing, just like the pictures but with the back foot flat and holding most of the weight, not sitting so low, both feet pointing straight ahead with the thighs pulled together, body turning 90 degrees back and forth to either side.

This is ji bu (chicken walking), performed in lower basin (di jia) , you also can do this slightly higher (zhong jia) which is more common.

I do this slightly different, for example the rear thumb should be touching the hip and the front hand should be a little closer (sorry for being pedantic )

Jon.