bagua - lightning speed?

[shmirsh]

Having become increasingly fascinated by bagua I've been doing a lot of reading while looking for a teacher. I keep coming across references about the "lightning speed" with which bagua practioners move, including comments such as "turned the circle so quickly that his queue flew out horizontally".
I've watched a LOT of video clips and I can't say that I've seen anything I would call "lightning speed".

So the question. Is this an attribute that you train for specifically in your bagua? How do you do it? I've tried walking in a circle and cannot build up a fraction of the speed that I can do when powering along in a straight line! Can you point to any video examples?

Thanks

Simon

[Bao]

This is a nice clip if you speak about speed

[GrahamB]

Thinking about it logically, unless you are running around the circle (a possibility) the only point where you'd develop enough speed to make your point tail fly out would be on the "feet stationary, twisting the body" bits. If you just stand still in an 'on guard' stance, then twist violently left and then back right you can make your hair, or things attached to your clothing fly outwards with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_force.

(Yes, I know it's a pseudo-force, but you know what I mean )

[fisherman]

Is this an attribute that you train for specifically in your bagua? How do you do it?

Yes. You have to start slowly then gradually increase the speed of your practice without sacrificing the principles of body structure and body movement.

I've tried walking in a circle and cannot build up a fraction of the speed that I can do when powering along in a straight line!

Of course you will be able to go faster in a straight line than in a circle. If you go too fast on the circle, eventually the force generated by the speed will throw you off the circle. Honestly, I have never seen anyone move so fast that this actually happens. I think the legendary speed you hear of with bagua is generated during application. Bagua can feel like it is being applied incredibly fast because it often leaves you wondering WTF just happened.

[middleway]

maybe this refers to Fu style? (not yin fu ... other fu) who reputedly was called lightening hands fu.

you can see the spinning in this form which i guess would flick the pony tail out.


IME ba gua is a very fast art, it has fast hands which hit 'on the run' but its not generally about running around in circles. The speed is an attribute developed through training ... not the training itself.


here you can see some bursts of speed in application.

Cheers
Chris

[Bodywork]

Don't always look for speed as something a person moving fast all by himself is doing And that you would visually *note as *speed* in a video.
In fighting it has to do with match-timing and delivery.
Example:
If car (a) is going 60 MPH and you measure the "time" it takes to go the last three feet before it hits the meet point (say a wall) its measured as 60 mph over three feet of distance.
if two cars meet - car (a) and car (b) each going 60mph, (the meet point being them hitting each other) the "time" it takes to go the last three feet is 120mph.
So lets say the guy in car (b) is the opponent, Car (a) didn't move any faster but car (b) felt like he got hit at 120mph.

Another practical example is Ali's anchor punch against Sonny Liston.
Liston threw a left, Ali waved back (led the punch) and when Liston's punch was fully extended- Ali nailed LIston face, which was fully weighted and extended in that moment. It was a superbly studied and executed counter punch (and a stellar reason not to learn to generata power like boxer ) .

While It's often noted in Western boxing, I think it really demonstrates itself comes to the fore in a more refined art like grappling even more refined work with weapons. Really good fighters can fit- in with you in unexpected ways and angles of attack, which makes them "feel" very fast...at least to you...while an outside observer may opine "Hey Jimmy, that guy tuned your ass and he looked casual doing it."

So, one person doesn't always have to "look fast" to an opponent if he knows the others game and can frame his movements and always arrive at the appropriate moment. the opponent on the other hand might say "That son of bitch was the fastest person I ever fought."
I am quite sure that Bagua is a study of all those angles and attack vectors that just happen to fit in and give you that.."Where the hell did he go?' and then..."Where did that come from?"

Slow is a failure in understanding if it arrives late
Fast is a failure in understanding if it can be measured and manipulated
Quick is the quality of making things just right. Always there, ever present and stifling, smothering and controling- as it is simply always there.
And that...feels...fast.
Cheers
Dan

[middleway]

agreed dan, Speed and perception of speed are two different things. It can seem like your moving fast when your movements are just well timed.

Cheers
Chris

[shmirsh]

agreed dan, Speed and perception of speed are two different things. It can seem like your moving fast when your movements are just well timed.

this idea of comparative speed being a function of perception is very illuminating... thanks!

but this would not account for an external observer commenting on how one's queue stands out straight when walking, however

"feet stationary, twisting the body"

- the idea of spinning around one's own centre does explain this to some degree.

so is the consensus that lightning speed revolutions of the circle are probably a misunderstanding and certainly not something that needs to be aimed for?

is this demonstration considered "top speed"? - (starting at 3.22)

[mixjourneyman]

From my limited understanding, speed is only incorporated into practice after you can do it correctly slowly and then at normal speed.

[middleway]

but this would not account for an external observer commenting on how one's queue stands out straight when walking, however

I think this is in reference to the Fu style as i posted. Check out the top clip of the two i posted, where the practitioner spins on the spot this is where it would stand out.

Or of course .... and just as likely .... its Bullshit.

Cheers
Chris

[Jake]

Dan said it best... Or as the old guys always said...

"He leaves before me, But I arrive before him"

[Chris Fleming]

One doesn't see much "lightning speed" in bagua at times because of the many breaks and pauses that people do in their forms. Why this is done, I don't know.

[Bodywork]

Well there is spinning-I’d rather call it turning-around an external axis.
In practice it's a spot on the floor, tree, pole etc ...
In use it's an opponent pulling pushing hitting and moving. So both *poles* are moving.
Then there is internal spinning in turning your energy around your own spine.

Again going back to the post about Waist and hips- lets make an example:
For energy out from the right
You can draw energy up from the front right leg that comes up through and around the left side to the rear. And that left hand can use it to pull if needed and the energy joins the right.
The left leg energy comes up through to the right and can issue out-punch or push if needed.
It is a hell of a throw resister as it maintains its energy; moving or still issuing or absorbing, remains balanced left to right, up and down, front and back with no hip chambering or one side weightedness needed to do something with the other guy or yourself for power. But you feel heavy or light and remain upright and balanced.

Here is another example
Imagine you have a door...instead of hinges on one side you have an iron rod pivot down the middle suspended from above and anchored below.
Push really hard and fast on one side
When you get up and rub the bruise on your face from being nailed with equal energy from that other side of the door ask yourself what happened?
And the harder and faster you push on one side the harder and faster you get hit'
Now...be the door.
Your spine is the rod it is 'suspended" from above by the head pulling up and "piercing the heavens" in Japanese writings.
It is anchored below through the legs and feet
When someone pushes on your right you spin at the waist
Your right arm can give and pull
While your left side feeds and hit or throws
Your body remains in balance.
The speed increases through release and relaxation. The power is uhm...interesting

Another one
Think of a washing machine agitator as drive shaft in the floor
Let’s weld a horizontal peg through the upper shaft (like shoulders if you see where I am going with this little ditty)
The shaft twists to the left and to the right; supporting the peg in balance.
How would this relate to throwing?
Grab both sides of the peg with each hand and try to off balance the shaft.
Now let’s pretend this little washing machines motor is a 500 horsepower low torque crank.
I turn on the engine.
When you get out of the hospital
Did the shaft lose its balance? Did it need to be one side weighted to throw you?
Did it need to do a wind up back to hit forward?
It was clean, clear power-in balance.
Since you’re all healed up
Let’s do it again
This time let's weld long arms to the peg and put boxing gloves on them
Let’s have you stand in front of them
Now let me turn on that engine........

So spinning as a mind intent on your own can be trained and is fast. But I was hoping to make an example of how the match speed can feel so sudden and if the guy knows how to fight can be immediate and unbalancing. Since it is around your own spine it remains in balance, be very fast and in striking hard to see as it doesn't telegraph like hip and shoulder movement with the tell tale launch points.
So that is an increase both in individual stand alone speed and matched speed and power
Cheers
Dan

[Doc Stier]

I agree with Dan's comments. When I move around an opponent from the perimeter of a circle, my movements may appear to be larger and slower, because the circularity of the footwork and the more static circularity of the arms and hands is larger. But when the opponent closes with me to make contact, I step into the center of the circle, in order to control the gap interval between us, and I must of necessity then use smaller circling steps and employ smaller circularity in my hand techniques.

The combination of these synchronized factors, performed at close quarters, allows me to join with and adhere to the opponent's movements, and then follow or lead his movements until they are neutralized and subsequent opportunities to apply countermeasures are found. Since these things all happen so quickly and so closely, they will naturally leave the impression of tremendous speed having been employed.

In the final analysis of the process, however, the entire sequence of events is simply the result of effectively applying the principles of good physics, which creates a falsely perceived optical illusion.

Doc

[revolution]

sifu Novel aka blacktaoist does some quick bagua. do a search on youtube in "search: channels" for "blacktaoist".