"Frame" - form and fighting

[Bao]

When people try to define the different taijiquan styles, Yang style is usually referred to as "large frame", Wu and Chen as "medium" and Wu/Hao and Sun as "small" frame. This is obviously a truth with big modifications. But a fact is that many stylists are often used to practice one frame only, or concentrate mostly one frame. I believe that this "frame-thinking" is deeply connected with our shen-fa training.

So, how do you use your "frame" in fighting/sparring? Do you find "frame" useful and why?

[sinkpoint]

large frame is needed to preserve details so small frames are possible. It's like trying to resize images. It's easy to get good results when you scale down a image, but scaling up from a small images will not give you more details no matter how hard you try, the information simply isn't there.

Large frame is also needed to stretch out and balance the musculature, correct postures, maintain health and strengthen the body.

I'm all for practicing and conditioning in large frame, and apply/fight in small frame.
So train both.

[Bao]

large frame is needed to preserve details so small frames are possible. It's like trying to resize images. It's easy to get good results when you scale down a image, but scaling up from a small images will not give you more details no matter how hard you try, the information simply isn't there.

Large frame is also needed to stretch out and balance the musculature, correct postures, maintain health and strengthen the body.

I'm all for practicing and conditioning in large frame, and apply/fight in small frame.
So train both.

So you believe that you can only use small frame in fighting? Or do you mean that most Yang stylists can not fight?

[sinkpoint]

large frame is needed to preserve details so small frames are possible. It's like trying to resize images. It's easy to get good results when you scale down a image, but scaling up from a small images will not give you more details no matter how hard you try, the information simply isn't there.

Large frame is also needed to stretch out and balance the musculature, correct postures, maintain health and strengthen the body.

I'm all for practicing and conditioning in large frame, and apply/fight in small frame.
So train both.

So you believe that you can only use small frame in fighting? Or do you mean that most Yang stylists can not fight?

Training is only used to fit a situation. Only large? only small? Limiting your thinking in that way is to limit your abilities.
Fighting ability is a direct consequence of training methods. I don't think there's anything wrong with Yang style, I think there's plenty wrong with the way most people training taijiquan. Not just Yang style.

[johnwang]

It's not how you want to train. It's what kind of problems out there that you will need to solve.

[Bao]

Only large? only small? Limiting your thinking in that way is to limit your abilities.
Fighting ability is a direct consequence of training methods.

Thank you for your answer. But what I was interested to hear about was how people here use "frame" in a most practical sense when fighting or sparring, not the training methods.


Re: "Frame" - form and fighting
by johnwang on Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:00 pm

It's not how you want to train. It's what kind of problems out there that you will need to solve.

Yes, this is what I am interested. How do you use frame to solve problems?

[johnwang]

In general, the large frame is strong in offense and the small frame is strong in defense. It's just like to compare between the LF and WC style. If you extend your arms as long as you can, you can reach farther but you will expose your body. If you always keep elbows next to your chest then you will have strong defense but you can't do anything about your opponent who just dances around you.

[RobP2]

So you believe that you can only use small frame in fighting? Or do you mean that most Yang stylists can not fight?

Yang has large, medium and small frame, the fact that people only practice one generally is down to poor teaching or lack of knowledge

[Bao]

So you believe that you can only use small frame in fighting? Or do you mean that most Yang stylists can not fight?

Yang has large, medium and small frame, the fact that people only practice one generally is down to poor teaching or lack of knowledge

duh!

[johnwang]

Yang has large, medium and small frame, the fact that people only practice one generally is down to poor teaching or lack of knowledge

I like this kind of attitude very much. The knowledge is not just what you have learned in school but also what you have learned in your job. If you train Taiji and you don't know how to do a spin back kick or flying side kick then you are lacking some knowledge which is not your Taiji teacher's fault but your own fault.

[Bao]

Seriously Rob, do you think that even the Yang people who practice all frames, spend equal time with each and every frame, or that they understand all of them, one just as good as the other, when it comes to practical frame usage?

[RobP2]

The ones I met did. It's a progression - start with large, then move on to medium, then small. Sticking with one was likened to staying in the same year at school and repeating it over and over

[Bao]

So, for instance, as a Yang practitioner and you want to keep your pengjin all of the time, do you choose to keep to a certain frame in your defensive work?

[RobP2]

Is pengjin reliant on frame size?

[Bao]

Is pengjin reliant on frame size?

No, but I still wonder if you have an "idea" of frame size in sparring or fighting and if you connect this to pengjing. Pengjing requires a certain structural integrity. Keeping and using this integrity, imo, is easiest through framework.

And thank you very much for your replies and feedback.