Does intellectualization interfere with your understanding o

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Do you feel that spending too much time thinking about martial arts is detrimental to actually doing martial arts?

Do you think that the idea of what shows to be successful in application has more value than what is theorized?

How much time do you spend applying vs time spent in rumination about martial arts?

How much time do you spend in solo practice as opposed to skill development within an environment designed to replicate real fighting circumstances (sparring/wrestling/drills)?

Do you think that perhaps you spend too much time giving weight to one over the other? Do you feel you are lacking in application yet abundant in theory or the other way around?

just curious.

[yusuf]

yes

[Darth Rock&Roll]

lol. gettin all up and in the zen this morning i see.

[Wanderingdragon]

Theory as in what is taught in the Classics, is time tested and proven, but if you get lost in the minutia ie are you open or closed does the foot land first, should it be turned this way or that, is it an arcing hook or a short hook, where should I be weighted, is the fist straight or horizontal is it internal or external , and on and on and on. I have seen many threads go the doldrums simply because the great intellects discussing get embroiled in discussions saying the same thing with different words. I think theory is great for Masters and teachers to help explain the technique, but only training will allow you to understand what the teacher is talking about.

[DeusTrismegistus]

1) Do you feel that spending too much time thinking about martial arts is detrimental to actually doing martial arts?

2) Do you think that the idea of what shows to be successful in application has more value than what is theorized?

3) How much time do you spend applying vs time spent in rumination about martial arts?

4) How much time do you spend in solo practice as opposed to skill development within an environment designed to replicate real fighting circumstances (sparring/wrestling/drills)?

5) Do you think that perhaps you spend too much time giving weight to one over the other? Do you feel you are lacking in application yet abundant in theory or the other way around?

just curious.

1) Yes.

2) Not really, theory should be a guiding force in how you practice and how you are successful in application.

3) Depends on the week. My martial ruminations are usually done while hitting my punching bag at home or driving in my truck.

4) Class time is roughly 50/50, obviously at home its much more solo time but that depends on the day and how much I do.

5) I feel pretty even between the two. Over analyzing can be detrimental but some analyzing along with physical experimentation can go a long way.

[Ian]

yes

I was just thinking "who the hell is going to say yes to all that?", and...... ah.

[Bob]

Some other questions worth considering are:

How much of your drill time is about preparing for the unknown rather than drilling to understand the body movement and application or how much paranoia underlies obsessional practice and drilling?

How many practitioners walk down the street hoping someone will attack them so they can prove their art to themselves and then convince others of their competency?

How much of your practice and intensity is driven by fear?

How many practitioners fantasize about being able to kill someone with their art?
____________________________________________________________

I've known a few practitioners, over a beer and outside of the training hall, who will honestly admit that this is much of what drives their practice. I am not judging positively or negatively the underlying motivation--its human.

[Josealb]

There are always times when i feel that my theory is way ahead in front of my practice, and that i gotta stop thinking and start doing to catch up to it.

These days i need to narrow the distance between the two big time.

[Jake]

Some other questions worth considering are:

How much of your drill time is about preparing for the unknown rather than drilling to understand the body movement and application or how much paranoia underlies obsessional practice and drilling?

How many practitioners walk down the street hoping someone will attack them so they can prove their art to themselves and then convince others of their competency?

How much of your practice and intensity is driven by fear?

How many practitioners fantasize about being able to kill someone with their art?

A. Quite a bit actualy. Every single time I go for a walk or am out in public... I try to be as aware as possible as well as scanning all around me looking for "weapons" that are laying around. Could be that empty bottle of beer on the side of the road or it could be the corner of the store in the mall.... I play games with myself and try to see what's available and how it could be used. Even when I see gravel on the road, I think about it in a sock. It's fun! Also, Paranoia isn't what drives me to practice. I can't explain what drives me, it just does.

B. I never "hope" to get into a fight. Honestly, the only competition I have is with myself. I don't mean that I'm the best or even close to that. What I mean is, is that I'm honest with myself and I'm always striving to improve.

C. See above.

D. I'm pretty sure we all have at one point or another.

Good questions brutha!... What about you?

[lazyboxer]

Theory and practise should feed off each other. Getting the balance right depends on the individual - some learn faster by doing, some by analysis and contemplation. But you need to do both, and you need to do them both right.

I tend to do more solo work than partner training/sparring, but am gradually increasing the latter.

Bob's questions:

1 and 2. I was mugged in New York in 1973 (gun+knife), after which I learned always to be vigilant. It's become second nature now.

In the street I always watch for potential trouble - I observe body language, appearance and general behaviour. If I smell trouble, I cross the street, or seek other exit paths. If challenged, I always try to feel and appear calm, measured and relaxed.

3 and 4. I try to practise realistically, with actual applications in mind without becoming overly stylized or rigid - my training emphasis is on speed, flexibility, sensitivity and power. If necessary, I believe I am ready to fight to the death, and therefore am prepared to use lethal techniques. I hope I never need to find out if they work.

[Bob]

Jake:

How many practitioners walk down the street hoping someone will attack them so they can prove their art to themselves and then convince others of their competency?

How much of your practice and intensity is driven by fear?

How many practitioners fantasize about being able to kill someone with their art?

In 1985, I met a teacher who would not take me on as a student unless I complied with the idea that you will train to kill or at least disable. He practiced what he preached minus killing someone [at least as far as I know]. He told me that anything less than that is nothing but ego and game playing. He felt that those training for the ring whether MMA or full contact were only one degree removed from taiji tree huggers---they simply played by another set of constraints and rules which got them no closer to the real world and that they were also living in a fantasy.

Sometimes getting into an art is based nothing more than to escape intellectualization and enjoy a felt body experience--it doesn't have to be any more than that.

Tragically that teacher died in a way which more or less fit his philosophy and since then I have met probably 2 or 3 more on a similar path. Poor reality contact---death and unconscious fear are something not to be toyed with---mentally unhealthy places to be. LOL

These guys are opposite of the issues raised on over-intellectualization of a practice. Their's is an almost pure instinctual drive with a sociopathic bend---very spooky people but for them the art is only a tool for fulfillment of a deep seated fear---nope, not my cup of tea.

They gave me a lot to think about over the years and some interesting insights on why people are driven to the art, especially to the extremes.

If you have ever had someone point a gun at you with a half thought, even jokingly, of pulling the trigger, you can see, for a moment, the truth what these drills and applications mean.

For me, its crystal clear how little the art impacts on life and death situations unlike its historical roots. Sometimes a little intellectualization is not such a bad thing in order to keep the practice in perspective and balance. LOL

[Chris McKinley]

Darth, great questions.

1) Yes, if it leads you to believe you have a greater depth of understanding and skill than you actually do, and/or if it actually interferes with what would otherwise be actual training time. I would say the biggest problem isn't necessarily how much time spend thinking about it, but what they think about it.

2) Always. The map, however Classic it may be, is never the territory.

3) These days, not a whole lot on either one compared to years gone by. Then again, I can get more out of 20-30 minutes of practice than most folks get out of their entire week, so it's not exactly apples to apples.

4) Solo practice is much less than partner work, including sparring. Mostly because I'm back to teaching CT cops and I've also taken up fencing.

5) I'm completely full of it on both sides . I can (and have) give a dissertation to doctors of anthropology about Asian martial history for two or three hours, then I can (and have) go outside and rattle off 2 or 3 hours worth of applications of single palm change off the top of my head.

Maybe I've just hung around this whole thing waaay too long.


Bob,

Sad to hear. It's part of the myth of martial arts that martial artists are all balanced, centered and zen-like. Most of them in my (eeps!) 33 years of involvement were some of the most insecure, maladjusted ego-driven wankers you'll ever run across. Much worse than the rock musicians I've hung out with for a similar amount of time. I could make jokes about wearing camos to Wal-Mart and stockpiling green beans or whathaveyou, but when you've actually known people whose lives were lost to or destroyed by these kinds of paralyzing fears, it's not really that funny to watch.

[benf]

Do you feel that spending too much time thinking about martial arts is detrimental to actually doing martial arts?

Do you think that the idea of what shows to be successful in application has more value than what is theorized?

How much time do you spend applying vs time spent in rumination about martial arts?

How much time do you spend in solo practice as opposed to skill development within an environment designed to replicate real fighting circumstances (sparring/wrestling/drills)?

Do you think that perhaps you spend too much time giving weight to one over the other? Do you feel you are lacking in application yet abundant in theory or the other way around?

just curious.

Interesting questions...

1. Spending too much time doing anything is by definition detrimental, right? But for me thinking about martial arts (trying to understand how the concepts manifest physically) is an important part of improving. This may very well be more true for me than most though, because I am not a physically gifted (agile/strong) person so I tend to go through the steps: 1. Try to understand something, 2. Try to do it 3. Realize I'm doing it wrong (even if it works) 4. try to understand how to fix it.

2. This is tricky. I am confident in the value of my teacher's theory, but I have experienced other teacher's who emphasized theory that did not feel like it made sense when they applied their art. I like application, but I think application can be difficult some times because often the quality of your opponent will dictate the success of the application. Also if the dummy knows the application he (I at least) can find it hard to give a "live" interaction. I don't know a better way to say it than that.

3. I try to spend 3 hours a day training, and much less time ruminating. I tend to think about the art after I have trained with someone, to see if I can make sense of what happened when we trained.

4. I do as much training with a partner as possible, it usually amounts to about 1-1.5 hours per day, more on the weekends. I do as much solo training as possible as well which amounts to about the same, less on the weekends. Our training (I Liq Chuan) tends to be pretty focused, so it is not often attempting to replicate fighting conditions (due to my level not being high enough) but we definitely "play" as well.

5. I think I'm fairly well balanced - for me. 2 person training raises questions (why did he hit me/why was my step to throw ineffective) and the combination of thinking and solo training attempts to address the questions... Because I don't live near my sifu his corrections to my structure are less frequent than I would like, so my body unification is behind my understanding.

One thing that was interesting to me... I spoke with my sifu about how much to train, and he said something along the lines (apologies if I'm misremembering) that you have to train the body, but you also have to train the mind. Once you know how your body moves/should move/you would like your body to move, the mental training becomes much more important. Me, I'm still at the point where I have a *lot* of physical training to do.

[Chris McKinley]

benf raises a good point. The question as you phrased it, Darth, sets theory and practice against one another as antagonists. As I've said previously, my view is that if you cannot demonstrate theory on demand, you don't know it, period. Therefore, if you keep to that portion of theory which you actually know by my definition, and can therefore show, then it becomes a part of the application training, not a competing hobby to it.

[Wanderingdragon]

This is an excellent discussion, but also an excellent example of intellectualization of the simple truth,if you train theory, you will come to understand it, if you understand theory it is applicable. Together they are part and parcel of study.