the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

When I began learning Yang style tai ji our teacher made us learn large circle pushing hands with an accent on frame and solid structure. We would practice with resisting power to test our structure, balance and rooting; so we would take on a lot of pressure from our partners. We would also transpose this quality to applications, practicing hard blocks and quite aggressive wrestling. Our teacher said it was better to learn the yang techniques first so that we had something to base our softness on.

I used to get a lot of critisism from other styles for practicing this methodology; with comments about being too hard and what not, but I think it helped immesurably in learning the basics of tai ji.

I'm just wondering how many Tai ji guys here had a similar start up to their training.

I think this is probably the right way, but from what I gather, it's not the common way. It makes sense that someone with no idea about the dynamics of fighting would not know what use to make of taiji stick-and-yield tactics. Maybe that fits in with the ongoing discussion around here about what went off the rails with taiji as a fighting art?

To paraphrase someone I speak of too often, a small divergence at the beginning equals a large difference in the final result.

Softer, more relaxed, from day one, should be the goal.

TaoJoannes wrote:Softer, more relaxed, from day one, should be the goal.

I agree with this. At every class I attended for more than 15 years I heared the same words from my teacher: "You need to relax more"

Well this is the thing; soft and relaxed is all very well, but I feel there must be some hardness within the softness, otherwise its duckweedarama! Besides, you can still wedge in and remain soft, or expand the arm frame to bridge, and remain soft. I think the whole "not allowing a surface to land on" gig can be interpreted as rotating instead of just withdrawing. What say you lot?

Walk the Torque wrote:Well this is the thing; soft and relaxed is all very well, but I feel there must be some hardness within the softness, otherwise its duckweedarama! Besides, you can still wedge in and remain soft, or expand the arm frame to bridge, and remain soft. I think the whole "not allowing a surface to land on" gig can be interpreted as rotating instead of just withdrawing. What say you lot?

I think you had better interpret yielding as rotating, not just as withdrawing, or you will often find yourself out of distance to counter attack.

Interesting. I ment at touch.

Often when I talk to tai chi folk, they say that the meaning of not allowing a surface to land on/not resisting and not letting go, they interpret it is yeilding and withdrawing the arm frame, but at touch, while sticking. I feel there is more chance for sucess if we rotate the arm frame, so that one edge yeilds as the other egde issues.

Chen style advocates the merging of soft and hard. How can you push someone away if you don't have any force? How can you even put a joint lock on someone if you don't use force?
In Chinese martial arts, the word relax simply means to be ready.

mixjourneyman wrote:In Chinese martial arts, the word relax simply means to be ready.

Or don't get tense

In order to learn how to use the art effectively, resistance training must be incorporated. Some teachers like to get beginners in the mix early on using the few basics that they've already learnt, and others prefer to start off soft and easy, building up resistance gradually.

From my experience..... In the KF I practice we work on grinding arm as opposed to push hands. From the start we work on developing structure and grounding the incoming force, then on bring the force from the ground out though our hand. This is great for developing good root and also for developing listening skill... When grinding you need to feel whether the opponent in pushing towards you or away from you. You also get to feel if the other guy is pushing from the ground keeping the body neutral or whether they are leaning in (in which case you let go and they stumble)

When I went to my TCC teacher he showed me single hand PH drills. The first couple of guys i pushed with complained that I was being to strong, so I softened up a bit. The problem I found was that when i actually went through with a push the other guy continually stumbled, where as my structure remained stable when they attempted to get me in a similar way. When I pushed with my teacher I found that he was soft also but he had the structure there the whole time and there was no point that I could take advantage. My teacher explained to me that there needed to be structure behind the softness, often people push with the sole aim of being soft and neglect the need to defend themselves... I.E: they are hollow and easy to push through.

With the PHs group I have been going to the same thing arises. When I am pushing there is no structure behind the softness and the other guys are hollow and easy to dominate if I choose too (sometimes I do but often I choose not to)

So... I personally believe that developing the structure with minimal use of force is the first step. Often people are far to hard at this stage and need to relax. But not to the point of spaghetti..... what is that lovely TCC term... that is right... SUNG... Those I teach have a far more solid beginning, but this is from structure... not just being soft, over time this becomes softer. The point being there is no point being soft if there is no structure, with good structure the body can still be soft, appear hard to the other guy and still maintain the qualities of adhereing, listening and leading....

Anyhow just my thoughts....

... ohh and Klonk...

I think you had better interpret yielding as rotating, not just as withdrawing, or you will often find yourself out of distance to counter attack.

QFT

agree with:
use a little force (just enough to get the job done)
yield = rotate
relaxed/soft does not equal cooked spaghetti

TaoJoannes wrote:To paraphrase someone I speak of too often, a small divergence at the beginning equals a large difference in the final result.

Softer, more relaxed, from day one, should be the goal.

I agree here as well. If you don't stress the softness you'll have a hard time learning it IMO.

Do you have to yield all the time? One advantage for yielding is you can spin with your opponent and borrow his force. One disadvantage for yielding is you may give your opponent time and space to generate momentum. You may yield away from his punch but you may not yield away from his elbow or knee. When your opponent stikes at you, if you can strike his shoulder and stop his momentum generation right there then you may save a lot of trouble.

Also it's not a good idea to make your opponent feel that you always yield, you may lose respect from him and that may give him more courage. When a tiger attacks a deer, that tiger needs no yielding. Making your opponent feels that you just like a tiger and trying to eat him alive will give you a lot of advantage in that fight.

I agree here as well. If you don't stress the softness you'll have a hard time learning it IMO.

problem comes when softness is stressed before structure... it is not about softness per se it is about using minimal force to hold a structure and using that structure to protect yourself... softness with out structure is not softness... it is cooked spaghetti.

Softness and structure need to be developed in concert, not one at the exclusion of the other.

John, it depends on what you think of as yielding, in the majorityy of people i have met yielding=retreating which does exactly as you suggest. Yielding can be used to attack... when pushed on the shoulder don't yield the shoulder back yield the other shoulder forward (to be very basic) Again the way I have been taught is that a yin action should be followed with a yang action.... so when you empty a space you must fill another.