Calf muscles: Their role in ima?

[Edwardo]

How much of a role do the muscles of the lower leg play in ima?

I never get much pain in them when i stand compared to upper legs.

I would have thought they would play a role in initiating an explosive forward motion along with the hips....obviously with good connection to the rest of the body.

I just thought of this because when i'm at a seminar/retreat it's my legs that fail first...maybe it's no foot leverage...i have ankles and calves like matchsticks lol

sorry if this a stupid ? or bdbf

peace
Ed

[Chris McKinley]

RE: "I would have thought they would play a role in intitating an explosive forward motion along with the hips....obviously with good connection to the rest of the body.". Who says they don't?

The reason the upper legs fail before the calves do in endurance exercises like standing is because the upper leg muscles are composed of a greater percentage of white fast-twitch muscle fibers, whereas the calves have a much greater proportion of red slow-twitch fibers. The white fibers are associated with muscular power and are designed to burn stored carbohydrate, called glycogen, for fuel, whereas the red fibers are not as powerful, but they are able to function more efficiently in aerobic mode, where endurance is king.

Remember, Ed, like Cartman from Southpark says, "there are no stupid questions....only stupid people." J/K.

[Edwardo]

Chris, thanks for the explanation.....i should have thought of that, ive got a diploma in sport/exercise science lol been a while though.

So are you saying even though they last longer in standing, they DO play a significant part in ima, despite them being hard to exhaust, or not?

When i work them directly doing standing calf raises they get more painfull than any other muscle.

peace

Ed

[johnrieber]

they're also about the hardest muscles to relax via good structure. if you run into someone whose calves feel like cotton when you poke 'em, beware.

[Edwardo]

LOL good reason not to train them directly then!

Thanks John!

peace
Ed

[Chris McKinley]

Any muscle that is in the force chain of a movement in IMA plays a role in it by definition. In a sense, the goal is to have all the muscles play a part, which is alluded to in the Taiji metaphor of being so balanced that a fly landing on one part sets the whole system in motion. Conceptually, that is only possible if the force necessary to maintain that posture is distributed as evenly as possible across the entire system, meaning all the muscles are involved so that they can all be as 'sung' as possible, rather than having one or two of them having to hold up the entire apparatus.

[Edwardo]

Thanks Chris....i was thinking i might be told they have no use...it's the tendon's/ligaments around/through them that play the role

On the relaxation note...could it be they are the hardest to relax because they are the furthest away from the brain? if so this lack of communication can be solved by watching a hottie on youtube

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iheV5wo80D8

peace
Ed

[Chris McKinley]

Tendons do nothing but hold everything in place and provide connections between very different types of tissue, i.e., muscle and bone. Ligaments only function to hold different bones together to provide structural integrity. Without muscle, tendons do nothing at all in terms of generating force.

As for relaxing the calves, the primary reason they are difficult to relax is because they cannot be completely relaxed and still maintain standing posture. Some degree of tension is necessary to maintain any posture, and the fact that they have relatively fewer motor neurons per square inch than certain other muscles do makes it that much more difficult to flex some fibers and not others, since muscle fibers do not partially contract.

[Edwardo]

Thanks.........i'm sure i have heard in a british newspaper that it was recently found that tendons do have contractile abilities.

i'll check it out again on the net and if i find the same article or similar i'll post here....but yeah i thought the same as you untill a short while ago.

peace and thanks again !!

Ed

[Edwardo]

Here is an interesting statement on running: The muscles act to provide a stiffness to the joints in order to control the landing. Only the hamstrings and adductors are active during the push-off phase. Contrary to what many believe about running muscles, the energy from the push comes from the tendons and not from active contractions of the muscles.
http://www.sports-coach.net/prewp/schome-achilles.html

I cant find find anything on tendons contracting but nevertheless the above is interesting..

peace
Ed

[Chris McKinley]

The Golgi tendon apparatus is a tiny structure at the juncture of tendon and muscle that is completely outside voluntary control. It does not even contain connections with the nervous system. It exists as a protective structure for when muscles are stretched too far too quickly to prevent damage to the skeletal system by causing the muscle fibers attached to it to contract in order to prevent further stretching.

As interesting as this mechanism is, it's actually very old news, and neijia mysticism fans and other New Agey types have glommed onto and attempted to co-opt this concept and wildly interpreted it in many different ways, each of which serves their particular unscientific agendas.

[Edwardo]

I'm aware of the golgi tendon...it could be argued we can control it, for example you can lessen its influence over the muscles by performing plyometrics, or c.a.t (compensatory acceleration training)..or for instance in contract/relax stretching (pnf i think)...

but anyway, i got your voice plus my old friend who taught me wingchun who denied all muscle involvment in cima.

peace
Ed

[chicagoTaiJi]

How much of a role do the muscles of the lower leg play in ima?

why, do you think the human body operates under different parameters depending on the classification of martial art you're interested in?

[Edwardo]

hmmmmm in thai boxing large/strong calves are essential....but muaythai uses very gross movements involving heavy muscle contractions..

i dunno i got tunnel vision from being on this computer since 9am this morning, it's now 9.41pm another day another excuse!!

forgive my ignorance guys..

i'll get back to this tommorow!

peace

Ed

[DeusTrismegistus]

hmmmmm in thai boxing large/strong calves are essential....but muaythai uses very gross movements involving heavy muscle contractions..

i dunno i got tunnel vision from being on this computer since 9am this morning, it's now 9.41pm another day another excuse!!

forgive my ignorance guys..

i'll get back to this tommorow!

peace

Ed

Muay Thai and kickboxing styles spend a lot of time on the toes. The calf is heavily involved in that type of movement. In taiji AFAIK most movements have the foot flat, the calf isn't nearly as involved as it is by bouncing around. Other than the bouncing and way they step and muay thai teaching to raise up on the toes when kicking I don't see any reason to say that the emphasis on strong calves comes from "gross movements".