beng quan discussion

[nianfong]

copied from the original forum:

Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 21st, 2008, 9:55pm
here is a clip of beng chuan practice from last week.
constructive comments always welcome.
if anyone would like to add a clip of their hsing i practice, please do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvAfiEBPegA

best,

bruce
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 21st, 2008, 10:04pm
looking better man, but you're still bobbing up and down, and your posture is tilting forward and back at stop and start.

you should bend your front leg more so you're not stopping your body's shifting forward before the punch arrives. if your feet are going to be so close together when you finish your form, you need to be more centered above your feet.

you need to choose between the two types of beng quan feet as well. if you do the normal follow step, you restore your feet to the santi distance (one lower leg, as if you entered twisted stance). if you do the chicken/half step, then you're feet should be next to each other at the end of every punch.

and finally your limao dao shang shu (civet cat reverse climbs the tree) is very strange--not really true to the meaning of the move. is that the shaolindo version?

Posted by: cerebus Posted on: Apr 21st, 2008, 10:27pm
Hmmm... the hands & feet strike me as being out of sync with each other. And yeah, that's a weird variation on the turn....
Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 21st, 2008, 10:31pm
i am bobbing less damn it Smiley lol

this is my version of what i was taught, it is really a bastard version of hsing i.
i learned the "shell" from my old school.
i practiced hard and learned something was missing.
i met some people who were willing to advise my in my travels
i asked questions here
practiced more ...
what you see is what i have come up with so far ...

... i assume you were talking about the turn part of the form.

regarding the feet being close like that i have been playing with that at both extremes at times i feel when they are close i am solid as a mountain and other times it is not very solid. i am still finding that balance.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 21st, 2008, 10:38pm
you want to train one or the other. basically returning to santi is as large as you ever want to "return" to after a punch. going to feet together is as close as you want to get. you don't want to practice the middle because they will happen on the fly when you actually apply it. If you train in-between you get neither benefit of full hip motion, nor minimal hip motion.

you practice the black and white and you get the gray in the middle for free.

-Fong
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 4:29am
Hey Bruce,

Looking good! Like Fong says your feet are a bit close together, but that could be a style thing (or maybe you just need to bend your knees a bit more?). I'm suspicious of anyone who says you're not doing something a standard way - there is no standard way in Hsing-I! It's more a case of - are you keeping the principles of the art? Anyway....

Here's mine:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WUlNFxpH1VI

There are lost of non-standard things in there - on purpose. Like "opposite hand Tzuann" at the start for instance. I like variations Grin

It'd be nice if people post their own video of themselves before ripping it apart... Wink

G
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 1:01pm
Thats right G, opposite hand elements are a product of your incredible ability to understand the principles and adapt them to any move. You invented them.

Posted by: Bao Has Risen from the Grave Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 2:44pm
on Apr 21st, 2008, 10:04pm, nianfong wrote:
looking better man, but you're still bobbing up and down, and your posture is tilting forward and back at stop and start.

you should bend your front leg more so you're not stopping your body's shifting forward before the punch arrives. if your feet are going to be so close together when you finish your form, you need to be more centered above your feet.

you need to choose between the two types of beng quan feet as well. if you do the normal follow step, you restore your feet to the santi distance (one lower leg, as if you entered twisted stance). if you do the chicken/half step, then you're feet should be next to each other at the end of every punch.


Damn you Asura! (Sorry Grin) - Damn you Nianfong, that was a good post. I think I really need to think over your advice to Bruce when I practice my bengquan . . .

edit: oh, Bruce, it looks much better now. It's more smooth and relaxed.
Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 4:57pm
thank ya'all ... i am working at it ... i feel like i have got a better handle on where to focus my hsing i practice in order to improve.

if anyone else is interested please post a clip of some of your hsing i practice.
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 2:08am
on Apr 22nd, 2008, 1:01pm, Jose Alb wrote:
Thats right G, opposite hand elements are a product of your incredible ability to understand the principles and adapt them to any move. You invented them.



No I didn't invent them. 'Opposite hand' elements (like Pi, Pao and Tzuann) are a normal feature of XingYi in our line. They're just a variation of the 'standard' way of doing them. Beginners don't get to see them usually. If nobody ever taught you them that's not my fault, why do you then have to assume that I'm making shit up?

"Red maples have forgotten the six alignments, tranquility will reveal the five elements."

But anyway, how about you just stop bitching on my posts for a change? You seem to have made it your life's mission to try and put me down whenever you can. Just because my XingYi looks different to yours.

At some point you have to stop trying to burn witches at the stake for not believing your true religion.

Why do we have to go on like this? What's the point?

It's a new forum, why not have a fresh start?
Posted by: TJMilkshake Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 5:53am
on Apr 23rd, 2008, 2:08am, GrahamB wrote:


No I didn't invent them. 'Opposite hand' elements (like Pi, Pao and Tzuann) are a normal feature of XingYi in our line. They're just a variation of the 'standard' way of doing them. Beginners don't get to see them usually. If nobody ever taught you them that's not my fault, why do you then have to assume that I'm making shit up?


Opposite hand elements are sort of in-between the elements and the animals. I don't so much train them as I do explore them.
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 7:12am
Very true TJ - a lot of the animals have things that look like opposite hand elements.

That opposite hand Tzuann in the clip for instance is very similar to bear. In bear we tend to move the weight forward and change the angle slightly though. But it's very similar.
Posted by: mix in a box Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 7:57am
Opposite hand elements are seen in some of the forms such as lian huan (opposite hand zuan), ba shr (opposite hand pao, or hawk), Twelve big fists (opposite hand turning heng) etc.... Its pretty standard xingyi fare.
Zhang Zhao Dong also created a few opposite hand elements in his advance and retreat wu xing.

They are pretty common.
Posted by: TJMilkshake Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 8:02am
on Apr 23rd, 2008, 7:57am, mix in a box wrote:
ba shr (opposite hand pao, or hawk)


You know, I never really noticed that because I missed the formal lesson on that shape, and we do the hawk higher than pao, but yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 9:38am
Graham..you know it can be the real Emptyflower without at least a little teasing. Wink

Felipe put up a Niu Pu Zuan on his youtube channel. So i guess that somebody did teach them to me.

But youre right anyways, its a fresh start.
Posted by: mix in a box Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 9:51am
on Apr 23rd, 2008, 8:02am, TJMilkshake wrote:


You know, I never really noticed that because I missed the formal lesson on that shape, and we do the hawk higher than pao, but yeah, that makes a lot of sense.


I think Hawk is done higher in most lines. Xue Dian's line does Pao like most lines to Hawk though. Its all very confusing to me. Tongue
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 10:03am
Mix, you mean smooth step Pao? Yeah ive been there. Tongue

But, thats a perfect example of intention. The form looks like its the same move, but Hawk tries to slide in with the front hand while the other kind of opens the door (or pulls the branch, if you want to be all hippie about it and think like a hawk Smiley ), while Pao just explodes everywhere.

Posted by: mix in a box Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 10:51am
Interesting.

Speaking of Hawk, have you ever seen that Earle Montague video where he is demonstrating a bagua hawk form and is like "Now what noise does a hawk make? CAW! CAW! CAW!".
Good times.
Posted by: TJMilkshake Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 2:09pm
on Apr 23rd, 2008, 10:03am, Jose Alb wrote:
Mix, you mean smooth step Pao? Yeah ive been there. Tongue

But, thats a perfect example of intention. The form looks like its the same move, but Hawk tries to slide in with the front hand while the other kind of opens the door (or pulls the branch, if you want to be all hippie about it and think like a hawk Smiley ), while Pao just explodes everywhere.



Yeah, the Jin is different, but the mechanics by which it is created are very similar, now that I think about it.
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 8:58pm
In "Sparrowhawk Flies through the forest", the center of the body must be as less exposed as possible. Imagine you are running through an alley and the walls get closer, and you have to position your body sideways to get across.

But isn't this a thread about Beng Quan? Cheesy
Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 9:14pm
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html

i am sure most have seen this before but there is a lot of good info to find on that link.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: Apr 26th, 2008, 10:57am
Bruce - you are not connected from fist to foot. Your hand leads your movement, but your body doesn't move it. Your weighting (particularly at this stage) should be clear - I suggest completely back weighted throughout. Learn to step with the entire flat of the foot, and at the finish of each move your weight should be in the centre of the weighted foot (slightly ahead of the front of the ankle).

Graham - is there a reason you break at the waist (your hips and shoulders do not move in unison)?

KJF
Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 26th, 2008, 3:37pm
thanks for the advice kenneth.
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 27th, 2008, 1:24pm
on Apr 26th, 2008, 10:57am, kenneth_fish wrote:


Graham - is there a reason you break at the waist (your hips and shoulders do not move in unison)?

KJF


Yes it is deliberate. The "break" as you call it is our expression of dragon body. Well spotted btw Smiley

One of the advantages of youtube is that we can see lots of different styles of xy. Everybody seems to do xingyiquan differently is my only conclusion. It might look "wrong" to you but I'm deliberately trying to produce a counter rotation between hips and shoulders. This forms the dragon body meaning the potential for power is always available.

Its a big subject and I could go on for another thousand words, but essentially it's dragon body.

Cheers
G
Posted by: mixjourneyman Posted on: Apr 27th, 2008, 1:27pm
on Apr 27th, 2008, 1:24pm, GrahamB wrote:


Yes it is deliberate. The "break" as you call it is our expression of dragon body. Well spotted btw Smiley

One of the advantages of youtube is that we can see lots of different styles of xy. Everybody seems to do xingyiquan differently is my only conclusion. It might look "wrong" to you but I'm deliberately trying to produce a counter rotation between hips and shoulders. This forms the dragon body meaning the potential for power is always available.

Its a big subject and I could go on for another thousand words, but essentially it's dragon body.

Cheers
G


Its interesting to note that we all have different ideas of what the dragon body. I will put up some clips of Xue's dragon style xingyi sometime in the next month. I think it shows dragon body very nicely.
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 27th, 2008, 1:50pm
It would be interesting to see a dragon link. In our line the amount of dragon body employed varies between the animals. Obviously Dragon makes the most heavy use of it.

Cheers
G
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 12:51am
graham, I didn't know the dragon body violated the 3 external harmonies
Posted by: Shiver Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 1:02am
Bruce, if you want to know why you are bobbing, watch your knees in the video.
Posted by: For Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 3:10am
Actually I don't think that any one is saying there is a specific standard, after all there is no unbeatable man.

On issue the Fong gives good advice! I don't even know what style he does but that is true. what he said about the legs.

The next thing the elbow. It is important to speed and to how much effect you deliver to the body of your opponent upon contact. The elbow develops the speed in the hand in the version of punch done in the beng. There is a little more to it.

See you around, For.



Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 4:30am
on Apr 28th, 2008, 12:51am, nianfong wrote:
graham, I didn't know the dragon body violated the 3 external harmonies


It doesn't - hip and shoulder move together at the same time in "harmony" (the word "co-ordinate" works just as well for me), that doesn't mean they have to move (or rotate, if you like) in the same direction all the time. They're still in harmony.

I'm completely familiar with the way Tai Chi uses hip and shoulder harmony through my Tai Chi practice. I'm also completely familiar with the way XingYi uses is, and it's different. This is all in my line of course. If you use it just like you do in Tai Chi then that's fine with me - a lot of people do, and you can do it like that, espcecially if you use dan tien centered movement, like you do in Tai Chi.

I appreciate that this can all sound a bit off base for people taught to do XingYi just like Tai Chi. This goes back to my thoughts on whether people think XingYi and Tai Chi have exactly the same body method, just different "fighting intent/strategy".

A unified theory of IMA is comforting because it makes it easier to do (and more importantly teach) both martial arts at the same time. I've found when you dig beneath the surface, it's not quite so cut and dry what's going on though. It's a bit like that bit in The Matrix where you can choose which pill to take... do you really want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes? It's a lot easier not to.

It's the same in religion - the simple explanation "you do bad things, you go to hell when you die, you do good things you go to heaven" is generally accepted, but is that really what happens? Is it that simple?

Anyway. I'd be interested to know what your understanding of Dragon Body is Fong (and anyone else who might like to contribute). What does it mean to you and how is it applied to technique? e.g. when you do Beng Chuan what difference does Dragon Body make to your movement? And if you took it out of the equation, would anything change?

I always like to understand how other people do things, hopefully in an atmosphere of open discussion, rather than a fanatical "I AM RIGHT! YOU ARE WRONG!".

Cheers,
G
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 4:34am
on Apr 27th, 2008, 1:27pm, mixjourneyman wrote:


Its interesting to note that we all have different ideas of what the dragon body. I will put up some clips of Xue's dragon style xingyi sometime in the next month. I think it shows dragon body very nicely.


Maybe you could also expalin what Dragon body means to you and how you incorporate it into your practice? No worries if not.

Cheers,
G
Posted by: mixjourneyman Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 6:53am
To me, dragon body is the division of the body along the axis of the waist and the torso to create twisting power. Essentially the way we train the wu xing in Xue's xingyi is to do the transitioning inside each element with the shape in the hips of the dragon xing. I'm going to throw up a vid of it as soon as I get to Montreal (a week or so from now). I'm by no means a skilled practitioner of this method, but it is my main xingyi practice (which is becoming my main practice as the seasons change). Smiley
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 7:36am
Hi Mix,

on Apr 28th, 2008, 6:53am, mixjourneyman wrote:
To me, dragon body is the division of the body along the axis of the waist and the torso to create twisting power.


Thanks, but what do you mean by "division of the body"?

G
Posted by: middleway Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 8:14am
Dragon body to me mainly means two things.

Spine wave and undulation
Torque/spiral in the body.

I am talking waist (not hips) to shoulders. The hips / pelvis remains stable the body above this has an undulating waving spine and a vertical / horizontal twist force dependent on the xing.

my current take on it ... but i aint any sort of expert.

cheers
Chris
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 8:46am
Quote:
It doesn't - hip and shoulder move together at the same time in "harmony" (the word "co-ordinate" works just as well for me), that doesn't mean they have to move (or rotate, if you like) in the same direction all the time. They're still in harmony.


I find it interesting that when Ken wrote "break at the waist" and "not moving in unision"....Graham read "not moving in the same direction".

I guess the eyes defend the mind, right?
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 9:01am
on Apr 28th, 2008, 8:46am, Jose Alb wrote:



I find it interesting that when Ken wrote "break at the waist" and "not moving in unision"....Graham read "not moving in the same direction".

I guess the eyes defend the mind, right?


And I find it interesting that I'm replying to Fong, and you read that as me replying to Kenneth so you can twist it. I guess the eyes defend the mind, right?

Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 10:02am
Fong said it because of your reply to Ken. So Fong seconded what Ken said. No?

I guess my eyes are off today.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 10:52am
graham, I indeed said it agreeing with ken. the 3 external harmonies together mean that your body pretty much moves as one unit, driven by the dan tian. they prescribe a coordination of the hips-shoulders, elbow-knees, hand-feet that implies that everything stops together, and is coordinated by the dan tian. the opposite motion of hip and shoulders adheres to the 3 harmonies by being coordinated in intent/timing, not always with actual direction of motion. pao quan is the classic example of this.

(ken, correct me if I'm wrong here) when ken said your hand moves before your body, that means a disconnect between the hand and the feet. ie: no hand-foot harmony. the break at the waist effectively means that all 3 harmonies are being violated.

-Fong
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 12:08pm
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. This is not a Xingyi thing either - all real (classic) Chinese martial arts adhere to these mechanics - not just Taiji or Bagua - all of them - Northern and Southern, Shaolin, Minjian, Daoist, military, shuaijiao, you name it - the fundamental body mechanics are the same.
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 1:56pm
Forgive me for being slow but I thought ken was talking about Bruce's hand and foot? For clarity, Ken are you saying my hand and foot timing look off?
Posted by: wongying Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 3:19pm
Graham,

I think Ken is referring to your vid with regard to comments on timing etc.

Yiu Ma Hup Yat - Suen Bo Kune
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 3:58pm
"Bruce - you are not connected from fist to foot. Your hand leads your movement, but your body doesn't move it. Your weighting (particularly at this stage) should be clear - I suggest completely back weighted throughout. Learn to step with the entire flat of the foot, and at the finish of each move your weight should be in the centre of the weighted foot (slightly ahead of the front of the ankle)."

This part was written for Bruce.

But since you mention it, yes, in your video there is a lack of connection from foot to hand, as well as unity in movement. I see a break in your connection at the waist and at the shoulders (essentially the arms are moving on their own) and I don't see the involvement of the hips and kua.
Posted by: Wu_MingYi Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 4:06pm
I think Dr. Fish you are being too polite. I watch this video, it look like this guy teach himself. Nothing. No Xingyi body. And when other people say something he says "oh you are being discriminating against me because my Xingyi is not like yours". No! It is just lousy. Why is everyone being so polite to this guy? Is like he learn from a book and maybe not understand the big words.
Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 4:31pm
on Apr 28th, 2008, 4:06pm, Wu_MingYi wrote:
I think Dr. Fish you are being too polite. I watch this video, it look like this guy teach himself. Nothing. No Xingyi body. And when other people say something he says "oh you are being discriminating against me because my Xingyi is not like yours". No! It is just lousy. Why is everyone being so polite to this guy? Is like he learn from a book and maybe not understand the big words.

nice first post. welcome to emptyflower. i am sure you have a good eye for martial arts lol

are you speaking about me? you got it wrong i learned hsing i from black belt magazine article not a book... Grin Cool Grin Cheesy

i have only said thank you to people who have commented ... and i said
>>this is my version of what i was taught, it is really a bastard version of hsing i.
i learned the "shell" from my old school.
i practiced hard and learned something was missing.
i met some people who were willing to advise me in my travels
i asked questions here
practiced more ...
what you see is what i have come up with so far ...<<

Tongue
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 6:06pm
on Apr 28th, 2008, 4:06pm, Wu_MingYi wrote:
I think Dr. Fish you are being too polite. I watch this video, it look like this guy teach himself. Nothing. No Xingyi body. And when other people say something he says "oh you are being discriminating against me because my Xingyi is not like yours". No! It is just lousy. Why is everyone being so polite to this guy? Is like he learn from a book and maybe not understand the big words.


Watch it, Wu. we are polite here because we like having civil discourse. you're new so let this be your first (and possibly only) warning. if you have no constructive comment, then don't post.

bruce, I'm pretty sure he's not talking about you. he's talking about graham.

-Fong
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 6:09pm
I think he's actually saying what you are all thinking. I respect his honesty, at least.
Posted by: Wu_MingYi Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 6:13pm
Sorry. No, Bruce I am not talking about you - you look ok. I am talking about Graham - it is like he is laughing at all of you. One person gives good advice, he turns it around to say that it is just other peoples looking down on him because he is doing different.

OK, sorry if I am making trouble or other people feeling hurt. What I see is in Graham's video he moves in many pieces. No kungfu body. Dr. Fish and other people give him good advice.

I seen Dr. Fish and Lo Taksiu when they come to UK before. They teach like it is in China. Everything moves together, but not like wood, soft and flowing. My teachers the same, everywhere in China and Hong Kong the same. Is not like my opinion or your opinion - it is good and bad, right and wrong way.
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 6:16pm
Believe me, I am very far from laughing at anyone right now.
Posted by: I-mon Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 6:32pm
Graham, he's saying what some of us are thinking, for sure. it's like by saying "in my line we do it this way" you're just stopping yourself from improving.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 6:38pm
this brings up a good point actually. graham, have you ever tried training it like we recommend? just to see how it feels?
Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 7:22pm
Smiley

i like to hear advice from all sides but at the end of the day i must make my own choices and create my own sweat.

what are some opinions about the soft way hung yi hsiang does his hsing i?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIjaz5nckG4
i think it is pretty good although different expression than many others.

regarding graham i like him and found in person his martial understanding was pretty good ... it may be his tai chi or clf in addition to his hsing i Wink

wu ming yi,

what type of hsing i do you practice?


Smiley
Posted by: I-mon Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 7:37pm
as students, if we are young, we are expected to show our maximum power when we demonstrate. the old guys are not, and they will sometimes not show any obvious power in public at all.

hung yi hsiang's coordination looks bang-on.
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 10:52pm
Smiley Maybe if I was old, or Chinese, it would look more like my hand and foot co-ordinated, huh? Oh no, of course not, that would be stupid, wouldn't it... my shit is clearly fake. It's body method. You've either got it or you haven't.

I never hope to stop learning or improving. I never said otherwise. But with so many obvious faults on my part I'm going to go back to practicing in the real world and give this internet thingy a rest for a while - you guys will have so much more fun without me "laughing in your faces" I'm sure.

Damien said it best.

What I want from us is empty our minds.
But we fake, we fuss, and fracture the times.
We go blind when we needed to see.
And this leans on me, like a rootless tree.

And if you hate me, then hate me so good
that you just let me out, let me out of here.

G
Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 28th, 2008, 11:00pm
on Apr 26th, 2008, 10:57am, kenneth_fish wrote:
. Learn to step with the entire flat of the foot,


hi kenneth,

can you elaborate on that part? are you saying to do it like a "mud step" where the heel and toe touch the ground at the same time?

thanks ...
Posted by: Shiver Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 12:24am
Grow a skin Graham. If you are happy with the way you do things, and you think it's right to the exclusion of others, then run with it. Did I cry when Fong told me my taiji looked "Alien"? (answer: yes, for a little bit). After that I evaluated my technique based on what my teacher had taught me, modified a few things, and went my merry way. I also took Fong's statements to heart, and asked if he was right about them. Specifically in that case he said it appeared in my brush knee that there was no use of the dantian. Truthfully, the way I was taught was that you start with big circles, and shrink them/compress them until they are not visible easily. So, I took his comments in context, and moved on.

Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 12:41am
and I wanna see what your current practice looks like man! Grin
Posted by: Shiver Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 12:53am
My current practice is the suck. I am embarrassed by it on every level.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 2:21pm
Bruce:

Since "mud stepping" (tang ni bu) implies a different kind of feel and intent, lets just say "place your entire foot down so that the entire surface touches the ground at the same time". The feel at first should be as if testing the surface (think thin ice).

Graham:

If you would like to see the sort of body mechanics we were discussing a bit closer to home, you might want to consider taking a seminar with Qian Zhao Hong or Luo Dexiu. Bill Tucker could also demonstrate this to you, as could Jim Uglo (spelling?), Julian Dale, and Paul Whitrod. Note that all of them come from different backgrounds/lineages/systems, but they are essentially singing from the same page.

just a thought.
Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 2:35pm
thanks for the clarification kenneth Smiley
Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 3:06pm
from the ef database a
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html


hi kenneth,

when looking at your photos of beng your strike is at the solar plexus ...
in your opinion how does the mechanics of beng change if you strike say high at the nose or low at the groin?

you mention the forearms being parallel to the ground with the strike but if i am striking the nose the forearm is no longer parallel to the ground.

i hope my question is clear enough ... thanks for taking the time to comment.
Posted by: mixjourneyman Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 3:37pm
I'm not Ken, or even close to it, but I have something to contribute based on your last question:
To beng someone in the face is very much different than benging them in the grouch. You have to change the physical shape of the beng so that the hand lines up at the optimal force vector.
Actually, I prefer to use horse for high attacks and beng for stuff under the neck. I believe thats what it was designed for.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 3:42pm
Beng is simply (at the beginning) straight line force - the body rotates around its central axis and drives the arm like the shaft on the wheel of a train (take the image of a wheel with a shaft and rotate it 90 degrees so that the wheel is parallel to the ground). Of course this is an oversimplification.

When we begin training we work on these alignments to develop an ideal frame to generate force. Later, the connections become more flexible.

If I use Beng force to punch at nose level the force is still generated the same way (and the forearm is more or less parallel to the ground, compared to say an uppercut).

One should also feel as if the fist is being driven from behind the elbow (easier in the posture we were discussing) and connect to he base of the spine and the yongquan point on the foot. The shoulders should not slide forward or raise up.

I hope that helps.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 3:43pm
BTW if I want to strike the groin with Beng I would sit lower with the down strike. And a liaoyin strike would be faster. We strike to the head and face with beng an awful lot (btw there are some good photos of SUn Lutang demonstrating beng at that height). We use beng as both a strike and a slip/wedge.
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 3:46pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 3:37pm, mixjourneyman wrote:
Actually, I prefer to use horse for high attacks and beng for stuff under the neck. I believe thats what it was designed for.


You said something like this a few months ago, and I told you that Jiang Ronqiao says in one of his books that Zhang Zhaodong was of the opinion (After a few brawls, I guess) that Horse was superior to Beng in high attacks. He let the others masters know, and all agreed. That's why the Bashiquan form in some styles has the Horse following the initial Hawk form, instead of the Beng.

The More You Know Cheesy
Posted by: mixjourneyman Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 3:49pm
Ken, may I ask a quick quesiton?

What is the shape of the hand and wrist if you throw beng at face level?
From what I have personally learned, to throw beng at stomach or chest level, you want to make the front knuckle line up with the forearm while angled downwards slightly, but to hit higher, you want to angle your hand slightly in the opposite way while still maintaining the alignment of the knuckle of the index finger with the forearm.
Does that make any sense?

I'm talking across styles a bit, since that is the difference between Zhang and Xue's beng. I'm just wondering if you can tell me if it makes sense as a principle to you?
Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 3:56pm
thanks kenneth
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 3:58pm
Good question - and I have tried them both ways - I have trained my fist to make a flat surface (by doing dingquan) and when I strike it is with the entire flat of the fist, with the focus on the first metatarsal of the middle finger. I do not strike with the knuckles per se. I try to maintain alignment of the focus point with the central axis of the forearm.

In Tongbei's zuan (essentially a beng strike) the fist flicks downward slightly at impact, and the strike is with the second joint (Proximal interphalangeal joint) of the index finger. The move is like flicking paint off of a brush. When striking up the fist flicks up, and it is like squeezing the udder of a cow (for you former 4H club members out there)

Te nada bruce.
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 4:00pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 3:43pm, kenneth_fish wrote:
And a liaoyin strike would be faster.


True

Just in case some of you are wondering what a Liaoyin looks like:




Posted by: T J Lazarus Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 4:03pm
I think that, once again, my line has a unique take on this problem. i could be mistaken though, it may be present in other lines. It's called the "bear punch" note it's not the "Bear shape" familiar from the animals, it's just one of about 30 basic beng variations.

It starts from a sort of Muay-Thai-ish gaurd, but the palm of the fist is facing in and is at about brow height. the fist travels in a straight downwardish angle, but the jin is definitely straight forward. I registered around 550 (out of a possible 700) with it on one of those quarter machines with the big punching bag thing on it.

I'll post a clip of it and my beng next week if Bruce will indulge me with the filmage. Smiley
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 4:06pm
Not having seen it yet, it sounds a bit like Tongbei's zuan. Looking forward to it.
Posted by: For Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 4:07pm
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/s ... gquan.html
That is kinda important. I mean, I need to read that, again and again. Than practice it, again and again.

It damages this!
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/s ... gquan.html
Posted by: T J Lazarus Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 4:12pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 4:06pm, kenneth_fish wrote:
Not having seen it yet, it sounds a bit like Tongbei's zuan. Looking forward to it.



I'm sure it will be disappointing. Tongue
Posted by: T J Lazarus Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 4:14pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 4:07pm, For wrote:
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/s ... gquan.html
That is kinda important. I mean, I need to read that, again and again. Than practice it, again and again.

It damages this!
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/s ... gquan.html



Okay, I don't get this part: The way of striking in Beng Quan is the tip of the tongue presses upward.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 4:20pm
The tip of the tongue always pushes up into the hard palate. Some also clench their teeth slightly.

Try this - after you are comfortable with the one punch per step version of Beng - try two punches per step. Then three. and so on. Then watch Raging Bull (no, not the scene with the ice down the trousers) and see how he throws short body punches.

Btw, I like horse for strikes to the floating ribs. For strikes to the face it also guards nicely with the same hand.
Posted by: mixjourneyman Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 4:40pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 4:20pm, kenneth_fish wrote:
The tip of the tongue always pushes up into the hard palate. Some also clench their teeth slightly.

Try this - after you are comfortable with the one punch per step version of Beng - try two punches per step. Then three. and so on. Then watch Raging Bull (no, not the scene with the ice down the trousers) and see how he throws short body punches.

Btw, I like horse for strikes to the floating ribs. For strikes to the face it also guards nicely with the same hand.



The method of throwing multiple bengs in one step is a sweet one.
I remember I went out for a spar around when I started xingyi with my current teacher. I kept trying to use beng as a punch to the stomach and just one punch. I kept getting hit in the face. So I asked my teacher and he showed me 3 and 5 punch per step benging.
After that my sparring got way better Grin
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 4:56pm
god I missed discussions like this...Cry Smiley
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 5:06pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 4:56pm, nianfong wrote:
god I missed discussions like this...Cry Smiley


QFT&P (quoted for truth and posterity)

Quote:
The method of throwing multiple bengs in one step is a sweet one.
I remember I went out for a spar around when I started xingyi with my current teacher. I kept trying to use beng as a punch to the stomach and just one punch. I kept getting hit in the face. So I asked my teacher and he showed me 3 and 5 punch per step benging.
After that my sparring got way better


NOOB QUESTION INCOMING

If one of the main principles of xingyi is the strike finishing as the step lands then how can you throw mutliple punches with one step?
Posted by: T J Lazarus Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 5:23pm
Mwahahahahaha!

Start together -> stop together doesn't mean that your strike is landing when you stop moving. That's the most ludicrous assumption I'm familiar with. At the point that you stop moving, you're out of gas, you want the strike to land before that point, and stop moving after you're already through the target.
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 5:28pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 5:23pm, T J Lazarus wrote:
Mwahahahahaha!

Start together -> stop together doesn't mean that your strike is landing when you stop moving. That's the most ludicrous assumption I'm familiar with. At the point that you stop moving, you're out of gas, you want the strike to land before that point, and stop moving after you're already through the target.


Thats why I said the strike finishes, you impact before you finish and the finish point is somehwere that was inside your opponents body a moment before, and the timing is with the front foot landing which the body motion wouldn't have come to a stop yet as I understand it.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 5:29pm
the timing isn't always front foot, deus. sometimes it's back foot. In that case you could launch your first punch around when your front foot lands, and launch your second when the back foot follows.

-Fong
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 5:43pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 5:29pm, nianfong wrote:
the timing isn't always front foot, deus. sometimes it's back foot. In that case you could launch your first punch around when your front foot lands, and launch your second when the back foot follows.

-Fong


thats interesting, how would you do a 3 or 5 punch beng combo on one step though? Wouldn't at least one punch be thrown without the forward momentum of the step?
Posted by: Brick hit house Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 6:19pm
The first xingyi I was introduced to was (to the best of my research) from a student of Li Tai Liang's. When I asked why 'beng' was so low the answer: in self-defense aspect of xingyi it's a strike to break the pelvis.


Ken, about the force in 'beng' I always thought it was more like force that comes from lining up the force the arm encounters with the tailbone called 'ting3'- straight force, hitting with the tailbone and driving force of the leg, rather than just the spinning of the waist using a 'shun4', although it could be a little of both. Maybe that's what you described already, but if not does that make sense?

Posted by: T J Lazarus Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 6:31pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 5:43pm, Deus Trismegistus wrote:


thats interesting, how would you do a 3 or 5 punch beng combo on one step though? Wouldn't at least one punch be thrown without the forward momentum of the step?


The momentum is sort of spread over the punches.

Think physics, how far do you have to move something in order to use its momentum?

That's a trick question, of course, like "How big is blue?"

It's not the distance, but the speed and mass that determine the amount of inertia that is imparted. If the body is moving at a constant velocity, and each punch is fully connected, then you're throwing punches with a constant amount of force.

of course, in "teh real", each strike that lands will detract from that momentum, or you can conserve it and shift it to the other side.

Gotta get liqour!
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 8:36pm
Brick:

on Apr 29th, 2008, 3:42pm, kenneth_fish wrote:

One should also feel as if the fist is being driven from behind the elbow (easier in the posture we were discussing) and connect to he base of the spine and the yongquan point on the foot. The shoulders should not slide forward or raise up.


I hate to quote myself, but I think that is what you are referring to - and as I mentioned, the rotating disc w/ a shaft attached is an oversimplification and only one of the dimensions/vectors of force in Beng.

As for multiple strikes w/ a single step - really, you can't fight without developing this. The root is not in the feet - its in the body. The foot/hand timing is just that, timing - all the parts working together as one. Learning to get all the parts working as one with multiple strikes (or multiple steps) is just the next step, so to speak.
Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 9:11pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 4:03pm, T J Lazarus wrote:


I'll post a clip of it and my beng next week if Bruce will indulge me with the filmage. Smiley

will do
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 9:21pm
I get the feeling that this thread should be moved to the Main Section. There is a ton of info here that goes beyond the vid itself.
Posted by: bruce Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 9:31pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 9:21pm, Felipe_Bido wrote:
I get the feeling that this thread should be moved to the Main Section. There is a ton of info here that goes beyond the vid itself.


i changed the title of the thread to discussion about beng chuan ... go a head and move it. and people please keep adding your understanding of beng chuan.
Posted by: Big_Phat_Wong Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 10:24pm



Smiley
Posted by: internalenthusiast Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 11:25pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 8:36pm, kenneth_fish wrote:

The root is not in the feet - its in the body. The foot/hand timing is just that, timing - all the parts working together as one.


i don't do hsing i, so please forgive my comments if they don't make sense completely from a hsing i pov.

but i really liked the statement above. the hips/center govern the root, ime. from a tcc standpoint.

or: a free flowing mass moves from its center of gravity.

i just liked the way kenneth fish put that.

and there's a lot of good stuff on this thread, imo.


Posted by: Ian Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 11:36pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 6:19pm, Brick hit house wrote:
When I asked why 'beng' was so low the answer: in self-defense aspect of xingyi it's a strike to break the pelvis.


I'm curious - how does that work?

[nianfong]

Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 29th, 2008, 11:55pm
on Apr 29th, 2008, 2:21pm, kenneth_fish wrote:


Graham:

If you would like to see the sort of body mechanics we were discussing a bit closer to home, you might want to consider taking a seminar with Qian Zhao Hong or Luo Dexiu. Bill Tucker could also demonstrate this to you, as could Jim Uglo (spelling?), Julian Dale, and Paul Whitrod. Note that all of them come from different backgrounds/lineages/systems, but they are essentially singing from the same page.

just a thought.


Kenneth,

Let's just say I've seen you on video doing XingYi and it doesn't inspire me to change what I'm doing.

Honestly, no thanks. I'm quite happy with the way I'm doing it right now. Really. That makes me an outsider here I know, but I guess that's my lot.

After I felt the kind of power the body method I'm practicing in that clip could produce (done on me) and its martial effectiveness I was completely convinced. I don't think you can really know much unless you cross hands with somebody. I meet a lot of people and cross hands. Just don't (completely) discount what I'm doing because it looks a bit different to you guys, that's all I'm saying. I know, I know, my shit is fake Smiley

I'm really not interested in radically changing what I do (not the same as not wanting to improve), so I'll stay out of technical discussions on XingYi in the future. Wouldn't want to upset the group love thing going on right now - it's nice - reminds me of the old days on emptyflower. I hope it continues.

Best,
G





Posted by: For Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 12:17am
on Apr 29th, 2008, 5:28pm, Deus Trismegistus wrote:


Thats why I said the strike finishes, you impact before you finish and the finish point is somewhere that was inside your opponents body a moment before, and the timing is with the front foot landing which the body motion wouldn't have come to a stop yet as I understand it.
How far from the opponent are you in your idea of this strick? Hsing yi as a system fights from, 'mid close' to 'very close' range which is why they learn the way of landing and stricking.

Have you ever seen Wing Chun fight, Hsing Yi fights in the same range and covers the same area of fighting in similar ways. The only real difference is that Hsing Yi fights on the center to 45 degree area, Wing Chun fights on the center.

You can not know Hsing Yi's version of Fajing, looking from the outside. That is the part you are not seeing in the movement of the punch. It is also how we hit continuesly, with speed. It can not be explained here, it is only something you can learn from someone who does it.

Does that work for you, I mean can you see it yet?
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 12:22am
Graham, I've always been for you doing what you're happy with. I'm honestly just wondering if you've ever had contact with someone who has mastered the principles of xingyi that those of us "attacking" you aspire to, and if you've ever tried it like we do it? It's an honest question, and I'm not trying to make you feel bad, honestly.

Ian, I don't know if beng is always used to "break the pelvis". typically it targets the solar plexus, sternum, bladder, dan tian.

heheh, funny story, david chang (GM Chang's grandson) was teaching us some cool new forms in cleveland a few weeks ago. one of them, a "lower section kao" he described to me as an attack on the bladder. he described in great detail to me about how when you hit the bladder hard enough, you compress the air or fluid in it, and it forces it out of your uretha with such force, that it tears the tube, making you pee blood. and yes, it's supposed to hurt like a muthafucka. he kept on describing it to me for a few hours...making gestures with his hands to show how it happened and such. he described the bladder as a balloon. if you hit it dead on, it would compress, but if you were off, your punch would deflect off to the side. if you did a shuaijiao kao (using the arm, not the shoulder...shoulder is zhuang in shuaijiao), you'd effectively press the bladder with your whole forearm, and it was almost assured that you'd make the guy pee blood.

so there you go. beng to the bladder. yi beng kan xue. though maybe we change that to "yi beng niao xue" haha

damn, can't post the chinese yet... soon... the new forum cometh....

-Fong
Posted by: gryphonz Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 12:52am
It'd be impressive, that's for sure
Posted by: Ian Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 12:56am
on Apr 30th, 2008, 12:22am, nianfong wrote:

Ian, I don't know if beng is always used to "break the pelvis". typically it targets the solar plexus, sternum, bladder, dan tian.


I just don't get why anyone would use their soft, boney fist to attack a hard, boney pelvis.

Yi beng niao xue... damn. That's mean.

Seriously I'd be so pissed off if that happened to me. But at least you'd know where it came from (i.e. it's not cancer and nothing's gonna fall off).
Posted by: gryphonz Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 12:59am
Does that piss blood thing work with kidney shots too? Smiley
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 1:12am
on Apr 30th, 2008, 12:56am, Ian wrote:

Seriously I'd be so pissed off if that happened to me.

hahaha you'd definitely be pissed off. you'd instantly piss the blood though, so you might have other things to worry about besides anger. Wink
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 1:14am
on Apr 30th, 2008, 12:59am, gryphonz wrote:
Does that piss blood thing work with kidney shots too? Smiley


uh, if your kidney was bleeding, you'd just bleed to death. you wouldn't be able to even get to the peeing part.
Posted by: middleway Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 1:55am
Graham,

Honest Question. Have you ever met / trained with a decent teacher of Xing Yi outside of your line? Have you ever had exposure to any other lines of Xing Yi directly?

If so then good work.... and skip to the end.

If not then how do you know what 'else' is out there, or how effective and powerful what your doing really is in the big scheme of things? HOw do you know its not Kempo body mechanics on a xing yi frame.... not to take away from your teacher as i am sure he is a fighter n all that ... but wasnt that his base?

from my experience....

I met a xing yi teacher once and thought ... wow this is the most powerful thing i have ever felt... this is brilliant!!!!

Then i met alex and thought ... that other guy had nothing ... what a shame!

Then i met Lou de Xio and more recentely Serge Augier and realised that there was much higher levels still....

What i am trying to say is that if you simply convince yourself that what your doing is amazing and dont even open up to meeting other teachers ... then you are doing yourself a disservice.

In the last few years i have met Mikhail Ryabko, Vladimier Vasiliev, Lou de xiou, Serge Augier, He jinghan ... and felt what they have measuring it against my understanding of what my main teachers had.

... All of them showed something new and unexpected which forced me to re-evaluate my understanding of what deep skill level is really all about.

If you just sit back without feeling then you will never really know.... I would happily meet your teacher for a chat and to feel his beng ... but he is not open to such things ...

You are welcome to Serge's seminars in June if you would like. PM me if your interested and we can talk about it.

happy training ... dont let people get you down. What kindof world would it be if everyone kissed your ass all the time!

Cheers
Chris
Posted by: canard Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 2:03am
on Apr 29th, 2008, 11:55pm, GrahamB wrote:


Kenneth,

Let's just say I've seen you on video doing XingYi and it doesn't inspire me to change what I'm doing.




Tongue
oy vey.....I met Dr Fish at a seminar hosted by Julian Dale a fair few years ago......If my XY ever gets to his level, I'll be pretty happy with my training. Maybe you should keep an open mind and check him out next time he is in the UK.
just saying.

edit....just seen middleway's invitation to you to Serge's seminar....yeah definitely come on down - we can have a whole eF meet and greet Grin
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 2:36am
on Apr 30th, 2008, 1:55am, middleway wrote:

If you just sit back without feeling then you will never really know.... I would happily meet your teacher for a chat and to feel his beng ... but he is not open to such things ...

Cheers
Chris


Chris,

He's very traditional - he does things by "interview", like his teachers have, and I respect that. I remember you saying you arranged an interview once, but backed out because you weren't into that idea. Our XingYi isn't taught in a commerical way or in a way that modern maritial arts is taught - it doesn't fit with the modern world at all. Ah, it's hard to explain. I give up. It just is Smiley

I've managed to get him to mellow a little on certain things (Edit: thinking about it, his recent experiences with benging people who then turn out to be (upset) police officers has kind of put him off again Wink ). I'm sure I could sort out a friendly meet for you if you want. I'd have to check.

But please - can you all stop asking me quesitons? Let me get out of this thread. I don't want to be here! Smiley

I'm just some random guy on the Internet. Please carry on as normal!

Cheers,
G
Posted by: I-mon Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 2:44am
graham i never said your shit was fake, and i didn't jump in straight away because it seems like you're sensitive about being criticized. you wanted some honesty so i put it out there.

is your coordination perfect, according to your teacher?
Posted by: middleway Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 2:52am
ok Graham... i was just offering my own thoughts.

Quote:
Our XingYi isn't about seminars, money or paying for classes, it's about more than that


Roll Eyes lol ... oh dear.

I didnt arrange an interview, i planned to meet him just to say hi when i was talking regularly with another student of his ... one practitioner to another and have a polite discussion over tea and to do a little training ... to see how your line do things. Like i do / would with anyone from any art....

When the idea of an interview came up i lost interest completely ... sounds too much like the 'bushido' group/cult around here. I aint applying for a job ...

Like i said, your welcome down to meet serge when he comes to gloucester.

I actually think your a good guy mate .. just not a very open one ... which is a shame.

happy training
Chris
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 2:53am
I-Mon,

I'm not a patch on my teacher.

Yeah. I'm thensitive. Wink



Are you guys going to leave me alone now, or do I have to delete my account? Grin
Posted by: middleway Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 2:55am
Quote:
Are you guys going to leave me alone now, or do I have to delete my account?


concider yourself left alone buddy.

thanks for the discussion!

lol

Chris
Posted by: GrahamB Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 2:57am
on Apr 30th, 2008, 2:52am, middleway wrote:
ok Graham... i was just offering my own thoughts.

"Our XingYi isn't about seminars, money or paying for classes, it's about more than that"


lol ... oh dear.



Chris,

Sorry, that come out wrong - I immediately edited it to:

"Our XingYi isn't taught in a commerical way or in a way that modern maritial arts is taught - it doesn't fit with the modern world at all. Ah, it's hard to explain. I give up. It just is "

That sums it up better. We just have a different culture. Ah darn it. Even that sounds like I've got my head up my ass. Grin

I know the interview thing is weird, but it's traditional, and we're big on tradition. Personally I don't have the time to interview students in addition to teaching - I usually ask a few questions on email and phone to make sure they're "ok" and not looking to "learn how to fight like in the Matrix" (which was a genuine email!) - I'm more... modern Grin

Ah, It is what it is.

G
Posted by: wongying Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 2:58am
Hmmm....let me think Huh Grin
Posted by: I-mon Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 3:05am
that picture is quite disturbing.

best of luck to you, Graham. in your posts you're always helpful to other people, so you're ok by me.
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 4:15am
I like hearing every different POV possible. It gives reference and adds depth to discussions. Whene evryone agrees its like we are sitting around drinking coffee going "mmhmm."
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 6:05am
Actually, if your kidney is bleeding, your urine will be very dark , but you will not bleed to death. Its a sign of renal impairment, infection, inflammation, or injury. The same goes for blood from the bladder.

On the other hand, strikes to either place hurt like an SOB, and can do some real damage. The bladder (if full) is probably more likely to be seriously damaged. The kidneys are rather tough pieces of tissue, and are generally present in pairs.

KJF
Posted by: T J Lazarus Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 8:12am
on Apr 30th, 2008, 1:14am, nianfong wrote:


uh, if your kidney was bleeding, you'd just bleed to death. you wouldn't be able to even get to the peeing part.



Actually, from personal experience, you piss blood, a lot of blood, and it feels like you're passing a bowling ball.

When you hand the doctor a urine sample and he says "Oh dear" because it looks like a shot of V8, life is scary.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 9:54am
on Apr 29th, 2008, 11:55pm, GrahamB wrote:


Kenneth,

Let's just say I've seen you on video doing XingYi and it doesn't inspire me to change what I'm doing.





Please feel free to post whatever clips you have of me - I could do with the input.
Posted by: bartekb Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 11:42am
Just wanted to say HI as I think my last profile was deleted due to not posting at all or sthSmiley
Anyway - Ive heard a rumor that James McNeil forbids their students from posting anything on the internet - which to be honest I understand more and moreSmiley
Of course we will not be able to confirm/deny this probablySmiley
Posted by: mixjourneyman Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 11:48am
on Apr 30th, 2008, 11:42am, bartekb wrote:
Just wanted to say HI as I think my last profile was deleted due to not posting at all or sthSmiley
Anyway - Ive heard a rumor that James McNeil forbids their students from posting anything on the internet - which to be honest I understand more and moreSmiley
Of course we will not be able to confirm/deny this probablySmiley


Dunno why you put it here, but anyways, Dai Boxer I think was a student of Mr.Mcneil and posts fairly regularly (or did).
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 7:34pm
Dai Boxer was a student of Li Tailiang, no? (Dai for Dai style...)
Posted by: I-mon Posted on: Apr 30th, 2008, 8:37pm
i'd love to see any clips of ken fish too, or anyone else for that matter.
Posted by: Dai Jer Chuang Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 5:12am
on Apr 29th, 2008, 4:00pm, Felipe_Bido wrote:


True

Just in case some of you are wondering what a Liaoyin looks like:







This is pretty much exactly the same as Lun Jin, from XYLHQ, apart from both arms separate as in tearing something apart.

JB.
Posted by: 8gua Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 5:48am
Graham, you should follow your claims with the video referenced.....you should also get over it and "start where you are" don't waste any more time justifying your training....there are clearly requirements across the arts that all practitioners and good movers share
Posted by: Palmer Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 5:57am
Quote:



This is pretty much exactly the same as Lun Jin, from XYLHQ, apart from both arms separate as in tearing something apart.

JB.


Hey JB,

Could you tell me what Lun Jin means? From my line that movement would be closest to one of our sparrowhawk movements.

thanks,

Palmer
Posted by: mixjourneyman Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 6:24am
on Apr 30th, 2008, 7:34pm, Uatu the Watcher the Ed wrote:
Dai Boxer was a student of Li Tailiang, no? (Dai for Dai style...)


He said once that he had studied with J Mcneil before he studied with LTL. Smiley
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 6:58am
Ah - I didn't remember/hear that. Thanks Smiley
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 8:13am
on May 1st, 2008, 5:57am, Palmer wrote:


Hey JB,

Could you tell me what Lun Jin means? From my line that movement would be closest to one of our sparrowhawk movements.

thanks,

Palmer


Dai Jer Chuan is right. The first time I saw this movement, it was taught to me as a XYLH move.

Ren Jin (Blade energy) refers to the action of separating or slicing, like cutting with a blade, different from 'Tiao' (flicking).

The movement where ren Jin is most evident is called "Pursue the Wind and Herd the Moon". It's like the Snake form, but the force is maintained from the beginning to end, different from most Snake forms that use 'tiao' (flicking the arm with power at the end of the strike.
Posted by: Brett Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 8:23am
Quote:
Just wanted to say HI as I think my last profile was deleted due to not posting at all or sth
Anyway - Ive heard a rumor that James McNeil forbids their students from posting anything on the internet - which to be honest I understand more and more
Of course we will not be able to confirm/deny this probably


Thats completely not true. we have four or five of mcneils students on the board, and I studied with him, (but not martial arts)

...and yes, dai studied some with mcneil, but I don't know if it was for very long.
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 8:36am
I think Dai evolved since Mcneil. He's strictly a Xingyidao gangster now.

And hey, everybody has to start somewhere.
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 8:50am
on May 1st, 2008, 8:36am, Jose Alb wrote:

And hey, everybody has to start somewhere.


That's true. I was born in a cross-fire hurricane with a spike right through my head, for instance. But it's alright now.
Posted by: middleway Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 9:03am
guys ... its been a long time coming ... but the signs have always been there ....

grahams lost it .....

Shocked Grin
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 9:10am
He totally went like...



Grin
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 9:39am
Great men, for good, or for bad, resemble each other. Thus it were no sophistry to say: that the soul of Cartouche had something of the Great Condé in it. The revolution produced all sorts of ambitious characters.
Posted by: wongying Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 12:32pm
You Remind me of David Icke Grin
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 2:24pm
Not tonight Josephine Smiley
Posted by: T J LePetomane Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 2:38pm
Napolean to Josephine: "I'll be home in three days. Don't Bathe."
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 2:48pm
on May 1st, 2008, 2:38pm, T J LePetomane wrote:
Napolean to Josephine: "I'll be home in three days. Don't Bathe."
Who's Napolean?
Posted by: T J LePetomane Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 2:58pm
on May 1st, 2008, 2:48pm, Jose Alb wrote:


Who's Napolean?


Graham's Avatar, Napoleon Bonaparte.

Can I help it if I can't spell in french?
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 3:00pm
No, you cant. Grin

Its been a long work day.
Posted by: Bär Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 3:03pm
on May 1st, 2008, 9:10am, Jose Alb wrote:
He totally went like...



Grin


OMG LOL

Grin Wink
Posted by: Dai Jer Chuang Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 5:14pm
on May 1st, 2008, 5:57am, Palmer wrote:


Hey JB,

Could you tell me what Lun Jin means? From my line that movement would be closest to one of our sparrowhawk movements.

thanks,

Palmer



Hey brother, how are things, good I hope?

Hmm.. I am not too sure what the translation for this move is? (where is Jarek?). It basically starts with you inch stepping forward and inserting you lead hand to your left side, so it looks like you are hugging your hip. Your body is very compressed and contracted in this posture.

You then inch step forward (in chicken posture, ji bu) and open both hands forcibly (back and forward). This move can generate a lot of power and it has a very nice counter defensive nature due to the inserting of the hand. Example someone throws a punch at you, you come in under it and forward, before releasing.

JB.
Posted by: I-mon Posted on: May 1st, 2008, 6:10pm
on May 1st, 2008, 9:39am, GrahamBonaparte wrote:
Great men, for good, or for bad, resemble each other. Thus it were no sophistry to say: that the soul of Cartouche had something of the Great Condé in it. The revolution produced all sorts of ambitious characters.


Grin
Posted by: T J LePetomane Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 9:04am
And here's that Bear Punch I was talking about earlier. All this is really making me want to practice more so I suck less, lol. Smiley

But I think you can get the basic idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKyFFHxGQ4I
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 9:20am
hm, looks more like horse than anything else.
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 9:50am
on May 6th, 2008, 9:20am, nianfong wrote:
hm, looks more like horse than anything else.


At least on the outside.

When I read "Bear Punch", I was expecting the kind of downard 'punch' (because it's actually a shoulder bump), that some Shanxi branches do in their Bear form.
Posted by: T J LePetomane Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 10:20am
The Bear shape is very much downward, and is very much a pi chuan with a different sort of feel, but the bear punch is more flat and straight, and is accompanied by the bear guard. If you follow where the fist is going, it's a downward vector, versus the horse which is an up and then out vector (in our style, at least). They wind up sort of around the same place, but the difference is mainly in how they get there and where they start from.

The bear is punching from your own, boxing style, guard, and the horse is designed both as an x-block/cross hands sort of guard, and as a way to pierce and open the opponent's guard.

I need to practice more, man, after watching the crispness of Don Bido's horse I feel as helpless and clumsy as a little girl with the palsy.
Posted by: T J LePetomane Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 10:21am
on May 6th, 2008, 9:50am, Felipe_Bido wrote:


At least on the outside.

When I read "Bear Punch", I was expecting the kind of downard 'punch' (because it's actually a shoulder bump), that some Shanxi branches do in their Bear form.


Okay, I just played with that a little.

Dropped the hands to the tantien and clasped them and did the movement without the hands involved.

That's nice.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 10:36am
ooh, where did felipe post his horse form?
Posted by: T J LePetomane Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 10:40am
It's in my "show us your horse" thread in the Video section.
Posted by: masterjonny Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 9:23pm
Hi Bruce
I think your bengquan got some mistake,like your harms always up and down,and your two feet is too close;and your way to turn back(li mao shang shu) is totaly wrong;and I didn't see your last beng quan,I mean back foot beng quan.