How strong are tendons? How about ligaments?

[Interloper]

Chanchu,
Thanks for the tendon paper. I'll see if I can dig up that presentation paper on fascia I mentioned, as well.

Of course understanding the physiology doesn't add anything to the physical ability to "do," but it is kind of neat to know how things work - especially things we're already doing with our bodies.

There seems to have been a lot of research done on the function of tendons in recent years. In the past only the function of attaching muscle to bone was cited.

Tendon storage of energy, transfer of rotary forces, and tendon elasticity were not talked about much- if at all. ww have some MD's PT's other medical professionals and so on- here on the "flower who may not be named."
So what does the current research say about the effects of tendon in force generation? What does it say about tendon training?. Just reading some new medical article abstracts on line since seeing this thread - looks interesting.

Would be a good idea for a article by someone with a medical/physiology back ground. "Effects of tendons in force generation in Tai Chi". Anyone know of such a article of worth?

"The high resilience of tendon means that it can serve as an effective biological spring. "

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u7j3718q734n71h5/

Collagen
Structure and Mechanics
10.1007/978-0-387-73906-9_10
Peter Fratzl
10. Tendons and Ligaments: Structure, Mechanical Behavior and Biological Function

A.A. Biewener
Abstract
The non-linear viscoelasticity of tendons and ligaments, for which much of their mechanical behavior reflects the properties of their collagen I fibrils, is well suited to absorbing and returning energy associated with the transmission of tensile forces across joints of the body. The high resilience of tendon means that it can serve as an effective biological spring. At the same time, the flexibility of tendons and ligaments allows them to accommodate a wide range of joint movement (or, in the case of ligaments, to restrict movement within a certain range). The high strength of tendons and ligaments also provides considerable weight savings, but this is traded off against the ability to control position and movements of the musculoskeletal system. Tendon and ligament compliance allows elastic energy to be stored and returned to offset energy fluctuations of the body’s center of mass during locomotion, conserving muscle work and reducing the metabolic energy cost of locomotor movement. Tendon architecture greatly affects the storage and recovery of elastic strain energy, with long, thin tendons favoring greater strain energy/volume (and weight) of the tendon. It is likely that other elastic elements, such as muscle aponeuroses, also contribute significant energy savings. Tendon compliance may also reduce the cost of muscle contraction, by reducing a muscle’s contractile velocity and length change for a given movement, as well as increasing the power output of muscle–tendon units that is key to rapid acceleration and jumping performance. This power enhancement requires a temporal decoupling of muscle work to stretch the tendon from the subsequent more rapid release of elastic strain energy from the tendon. This decoupling may be achieved by changes in inertia and mechanical advantage in vertebrates, but is facilitated by catch mechanisms in invertebrate jumpers. Although it is critical that tendons and ligaments have sufficient strength and an adequate safety factor to limit the risk of failure, tendons are likely subject to damage during their use, which favors a greater safety factor. In addition, because tendon compliance impedes position control, the thickness of many tendons suggests that having sufficient stiffness, rather than strength, is a key structural requirement. Indeed, the majority of tendons that have been studied to date appear to operate at lower stresses and strains, have larger safety factors, and are stiffer, compared with “high-stress” tendons of animals specialized for elastic energy savings.
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[Chanchu]

You are welcome! There used to be some articles on line about "training tendons " from a western medical perspective. Can't find them now- involved long term loading of tendons something like the principal of "tendon changing classic."

People who have/are studying kinesiology recently may have some information about it

http://outside.away.com/outside/magazin ... body1.html

Found one non medical one above from "Outside" mag. don't agree with the tx methods cited exactly but it give an idea of what some of the more current ideas are about tendon training.

[Chris McKinley]

Chanchu,

Your article reference was interesting. We've long known that tendons increase their accretion of tensile factors, thus increasing tensile strength, with repeated and sustained exposure to neomaximal loads. I'm just happy to see more interest in Western circles in designing intelligent programs specifically to produce that effect. The Soviets and eastern bloc countries were making discoveries in this regard 20 years ago. That is, in fact, where we in the West got introduced to plyometrics in the first place. I'm glad to see we're catching up.

[Brady]

Some stuff on tensegrity as it relates to humans and spine dynamics is fascinating and nearly completely over my head.
Sorry for bitching about the thread turning into a plyo discussion, that was unwarranted.
I have found that tendons are extraordinarily difficult to remodel, both in my own training and that of clients, but is of critical importance to any properly structured training. Also, it is interesting to note the variations in tendon structure related to various tasks. For example, the sacrolumbar fascia of distance runners is very different from that of heavy lifters. I wonder if there is a universal best or different strokes for different folks.

[everything]

I have found that tendons are extraordinarily difficult to remodel, both in my own training and that of clients, but is of critical importance to any properly structured training. Also, it is interesting to note the variations in tendon structure related to various tasks. For example, the sacrolumbar fascia of distance runners is very different from that of heavy lifters. I wonder if there is a universal best or different strokes for different folks.

I am guessing this community is more interested in having a structure more similar to that of the lifters?

I can't really follow the content of the springerlink.com link but it seems very interesting. The first sentences:

The non-linear viscoelasticity of tendons and ligaments, for which much of their mechanical behavior reflects the properties of their collagen I fibrils, is well suited to absorbing and returning energy associated with the transmission of tensile forces across joints of the body. The high resilience of tendon means that it can serve as an effective biological spring.

seem to mean that in bodywork's story, his tendons helped absorb that massive amount of force.

[Bodywork]

...seems to mean that in bodywork's story, his tendons helped absorb that massive amount of force.

True but not so simple IME. There is a spring like load release effect but trying to "do it" by consciously moving body parts-even properly identified body parts- will not cut it, not by a long shot. I think this is the reason, that when people try to approach internal arts by mimicking movement, or approach internals as skills as principles in use or ; peng. an, or aiki age /sage as “things to do” with moving their body – they’re pretty much screwed from the get go. They will never get that body quality of real power, that transfers to any venue; East, West, old or modern. Why? they are still doing shit to someone when the other guy does his shit to them. It all get confused since ultimately both internal and external end up with fce being managed, but the means and source are not the same.
The science
For me the only real intrigue to speculating on "what" is happening on the inside is to know what it is. Not in how to do it. Case in point is to have learned cross-line body work, trained though intent and to spiral through the hips with the waist, only to see the discovery (I think in the 80's) that the fascial trains do that very thing. There really was no intrigue on *how* to train it, just the curiosity of knowing that regardless of our science-they- were right all along, centuries ago. To me, maybe only to me, regardless of the method it is intent that does the trick; first in solo form, then in movement then in sparring. As I said ‘knowing” what part of the body is being affected has always been of secondary importance. No one got anywhere by saying,, “Okay Johny, stand still, now imagine your tendons firing instead of your muscles…”
Teacher…how do I “feel” that in the first place?”
Instead it is a method largely dependant on feeling and feedback through intent and the building of taught connections.

FWIW, I think the “what” has more to do with engaging the tendons in an antagonistic fashion. For a rather crude and simplistic example; say you were standing and imagining a force was pulling you backward and you had to remain upright…imagine that feeling in your body, I mean really gathering that flooding of the neural system, the tendons and mildly the muscles,,,but with no physical motion or active flexation happening- then imagine that at that very same moment another force is pulling you …forward…as well and imagine that feeling of having to remain upright against that force.
At a point, if you have fully captured and realized all the antagonistic directions involved in your body, your body will be on fire with intent. There will be a general tonus, applied to all the systems involved to want to rise, sink, backward and down, upward and out, forward and down, backward and up, all at the same time. Usually the mind gives out in a minute or two as it just cannot maintain so much information in a held state that is so different to what one normally does. If you trained in real world methods to train this- and it is far more complex than the example offered- and were able to suspend the bodies intent between opposing forces in all directions, then any actual force contacting you simply joins with more of your mass (which you have trained to engage) and is absorbed or redirected instantly with these trained lines of opposing intent.
The method of physical movement that comes next, is just an expression of what you choose to do…that is the birth place of the arts. You may physically move in response that used principles of Judo, jujutsu, Taiji, Bagua etc.

In any event I think many/ most MAers approach everything with the “They do this and I do that” approach to managing force. Too many look at the external results of good principles (all the arts have good body principles) some of which is really neat shit that handles force well, and can be really ghosty and or very powerful, and then call that internal training. I also think it’s the source of why so many grapplers look at internal people and say one of two things
Principle based understanding being called internal
1. Grappler says “What’s the big deal we do that too?" Why? Because both parties are in fact just doing the same shit.
Or
Internal guy who is inept
2. Grappler to internal guy who keeps ending up on his ass. "Maybe you need to learn how to fight. Your internal training seems pretty much useless."

The third option is what SHOULD be happening when you meet an external guy with “throwing-based” skills. That would be the internal guy *not* getting his ass handed to him, and instead canceling out the entries and throw attempts (meaning you have become one tough hombre to throw) and looking at the grappler and saying
“That shit works pretty good till you meet a guy like me huh?”

There is a body quality, that should be discernable in an instant that doesn’t have a damn thing to do with principles or skills. If it isn’t- maybe people should rethink that regardless of who their teacher is or what they think they know, maybe the *what* that is the defining difference of “internal movement” has largely escaped them.
Cheers
Dan

[DeusTrismegistus]

I was confused of all the golgi talk so I looked up the two different things.

So here is the golgi tendon thingy (technical term)



This thingy is where the muscles attach to teh tendons and is responsible for feedback on muscle contraction. It causes the autogenic inhibition reflex which is, "Reflex inhibition of a motor unit in response to excessive tension in the muscle fibres it supplies. Muscle tension is monitored by the Golgi tendon organs. Autogenic inhibition is a protective mechanism, preventing muscles from exerting more force than the bones and tendons can tolerate. Deinhibition training is designed to reduce or counteract the inhibitory impulses, allowing muscles to exert greater forces." from http://www.answers.com/topic/autogenic-inhibition.

The other golgi thingy is



The Golgi apparatus (also called the Golgi body, Golgi complex, or dictyosome) is an organelle found in most eukaryotic cells. It was identified in 1898 by the Italian physician Camillo Golgi and was named after him.

The primary function of the Golgi apparatus is to process and package the macromolecules such as proteins and lipids that are synthesized by the cell. It is particularly important in the processing of proteins for secretion. The Golgi apparatus forms a part of the endomembrane system of eukaryotic cells.

[Chris McKinley]

Deus,

Good reference for those who might not actually know. However, once you understand what they are, I hope it is rather obvious to everyone that within the context of this thread, it is the first Golgi thingy that we are discussing, given that your illustration clearly shows it to be involved with muscle/tendon junctions. If not, well, now they know anyway thanks to your references.

[everything]

Thanks a lot, Dan. So basically that's the same as the yiquan idea of dynamically opposing forces, right? I try to do that but currently am quite lousy at it. Will keep working on it.

[Bodywork]

Thanks a lot, Dan. So basically that's the same as the yiquan idea of dynamically opposing forces, right? I try to do that but currently am quite lousy at it. Will keep working on it.

Well I don't want to talk about the specific means or methods Yiquan uses to train or not unless someone else wants to. I described only one part of a much more complex model.
Cheers
Dan

[Chris McKinley]

The stuff Dan is describing can make an interesting adjunct to zhan zhuang, btw. There's a saying I use with my students when introducing them to learning how to use and control some very deep inner muscles of the spine and pelvis for eventual martial use. "What you can feel, you can control". I tell them that this means that they will have to first spend a little while, it could be days, weeks or months, first learning to feel the muscles in question and what they do. The sneaky side benefit is that it requires them to really relax all the other surrounding musculature as much as possible in order to feel those muscles. Another interesting facet to it is that in order to feel just those muscles, and to consciously relax the others, your intent has to become more and more focused and accurate as well.

[BruceP]

Following what Chris wrote;

I try to get folks zeroed in on an alignment by creating what I can only describe as 'crepitus' - not real crepitus, indicating tissue damage, but the same 'creaking'. It's a good indicator of isolation at any rate.

[somatai]

The stuff Dan is describing can make an interesting adjunct to zhan zhuang, btw. There's a saying I use with my students when introducing them to learning how to use and control some very deep inner muscles of the spine and pelvis for eventual martial use. "What you can feel, you can control". I tell them that this means that they will have to first spend a little while, it could be days, weeks or months, first learning to feel the muscles in question and what they do. The sneaky side benefit is that it requires them to really relax all the other surrounding musculature as much as possible in order to feel those muscles. Another interesting facet to it is that in order to feel just those muscles, and to consciously relax the others, your intent has to become more and more focused and accurate as well.

good post and training method, thanks.

[Chris McKinley]

Sho nuff...glad to help. Another thing I like about it is that it contains absolutely no mystical mambo-jahambo --it's purely objective and pragmatic-- and yet it contributes squarely and directly toward the development of proper shenfa. Once someone is beginning to consistently feel those muscles, they can also integrate it into further honing their circle walking, since it provides further refinement (and martially speaking, power) to the concept of both twisting and of the body as a pump with each step.

[johnrieber]

stretching tendons is more fun than stretching muscles.

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grasping muscles at the points where they merge with the tendons is more fun than just grasping muscle masses in general.

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