How strong are tendons? How about ligaments?

[Buddy]

Sorry, due to the bickering I only read a couple of pages. Like Dan, I've had some PT people come discuss our separate paradigms. Not only could they not do what I can do, they had no basis of understanding it. Told me that they could not go back to their Prof and report what my body could do. I can relate, I did have any basis of understanding what Kumar and his students could do when I felt it. But I knew if they could do it, I could. Although I am still healing...I have been refining how to teach it.

Although it might be dated now, I found my current chiro guy (who has done NO chiro on me) through the book Anatomy Trains, which is all about the fascial web. I highly recommend it.

[everything]

thanks, Buddy. This book is on my list to get.

I'm trying to have this conversation with a couple of PT's but it's difficult because of all the reasons you and others stated already. I'll still have the conversation as they have a lot of information and experience that helps my understanding and is causing me to make some changes and who knows what they could come up with once we're more on the same page. Also, I have to explain what I'm trying to do in MA in order for them to best help me with some issues.

[Chanchu]

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/91/1/26

Effects of isometric training on the elasticity of human tendon structures in vivo
Keitaro Kubo1, Hiroaki Kanehisa1, Masamitsu Ito2, and Tetsuo Fukunaga1

1 Department of Life Science (Sports Sciences), University of Tokyo, Komaba 3-8-1, Meguro, Tokyo; and 2 Graduate School of Health and Sport Science, Nippon Sport Science University, Fukasawa 7-1-1, Setagaya, Tokyo, Japan

The present study aimed to investigate the effect of isometric training on the elasticity of human tendon structures. Eight subjects completed 12 wk (4 days/wk) of isometric training that consisted of unilateral knee extension at 70% of maximal voluntary contraction (MVC) for 20 s per set (4 sets/day). Before and after training, the elongation of the tendon structures in the vastus lateralis muscle was directly measured using ultrasonography while the subjects performed ramp isometric knee extension up to MVC. The relationship between the estimated muscle force and tendon elongation (L) was fitted to a linear regression, the slope of which was defined as stiffness of the tendon structures. The training increased significantly the volume (7.6±4.3%) and MVC torque (33.9±14.4%) of quadriceps femoris muscle. The L values at force production levels beyond 550 N were significantly shorter after training. The stiffness increased significantly from 67.5±21.3 to 106.2±33.4 N/mm. Furthermore, the training significantly increased the rate of torque development (35.8 ± 20.4%) and decreased electromechanical delay (-18.4±3.8%). Thus the present results indicate that isometric training increases the stiffness and Young's modulus of human tendon structures as well as muscle strength and size. This change in the tendon structures would be assumed to be an advantage for increasing the rate of torque development and shortening the electromechanical delay.

resistance training; stiffness; ultrasonography; vastus lateralis muscle

Here is another medical abstract - concerns isometric TX of tendon which could be considered somewhat comparable to some types of Shaolin Tendon TX and nei chia stake standing. PT's can be a bit wary of internal arts training and using internal arts methods in rehab- however, once they see the effects the are often much more receptive. KNS people are often have alot of knowledge about the function and anatomy of tendons in athletics. In My opinion Chi Kung is often as effective if not more effective- than western physical medicine

If you are training or have trained in western physical therapy (most degree's are doctorates now) and have a deep background in CMA/Chi Kung, you would have a healing art with teeth and claws..

"This change in the tendon structures would be assumed to be an advantage for increasing the rate of torque development and shortening the electromechanical delay."

I would assume this to also be a advantage in CMA TX.

[everything]

Thanks for the article. What is KNS? kinesiology? I cannot tell why that's different from PT.

I would love to get some help from a PT expert with qigong background.

[Bodywork]

Actually I think you should find "help' from someone with a shit load of power and sensitivity and who does not feel like any one normal person you know and who has a history of being able to reproduce it in others. I won't try to dissuade you from what seems to be a strong opinion on your end that PT people can somehow teach you internal power through science. I haven't met one yet. But every person needs to pursue their own dead-ends till they give up and start to think logically.
1. Where is there power?
2. Who has it?
3. Why would I think I know anything enough to think I can judge the quality of movement I am looking for yet?
4. I will go out and feel some people who are agreed by others (at least) to get it, I will compare notes on them to see if they feel different than eveeyone else I know.
5. What are they training?
6. How?
I'm betting you will be right back to intent and traditional methods of training-if not traditional arts,
FWIW the book anatomy trains is a good book, but for my purposes nothing more than fulfilling a curiosity. It is again a great example of what I mean't by science being inept at being able to ouline a clear path to internal training. Case in point: It clearly shows the crossline fascial trains that we train and the psoas...yeah...so what! Go grab the author or any other PT guy and see how far you get with him teaching you how to train to use those lines in anyother way than what is sure to be more athletics
Good luck with that.
Cheers
Dan

[Bhassler]

PT is not the same as kinesiology. Kinesiology is the study of movement, whereas PT would be more the study of movement pathology and how to fix it based on anatomy and research.

Dr. Yang Yang is a traditionally trained disciple of Feng Zhiqiang and recently got his PhD in Kinesiology from the University of Illinois. Currently he seems more focused on the healing aspects of Taiji, but he's someone you might keep an eye on. If he is very successful with his program, that will stimulate more interest in the combination of traditional training and academic research-- but until then your best bet is to learn the traditional stuff and learn the western academic stuff separately and put the pieces together on your own. You learn more that way any how.

[everything]

Actually I think you should find "help' from someone with a shit load of power and sensitivity ...
I'm betting you will be right back to intent and traditional methods of training-if not traditional arts,
FWIW the book anatomy trains is a good book, but for my purposes nothing more than fulfilling a curiosity. It is again a great example of what I mean't by science being inept at being able to ouline a clear path to internal training. Case in point: It clearly shows the crossline fascial trains that we train and the psoas...yeah...so what!

yes, i think you're right and that is ok. the "help" i'm getting is just for temporary (better be) issues mainly from injuries. recovery has got me curious. i have no idea what those fascial trains are and it sounds like your knowing doesn't help you practically, but what the heck? i might as well know. i can't train for the moment so have a few extra minutes of curiosity to satisfy. plus, i like knowing the what and why as well as the how. i don't want to go down any dead ends if people here have convinced me they are dead ends but it sounds like you know the whats and whys but focus on the how - i'd like to do the same. i really appreciate the help!

Go grab the author or any other PT guy and see how far you get with him teaching you how to train to use those lines in anyother way than what is sure to be more athletics
Good luck with that.
Cheers
Dan

i just meant it'd be good to get the PT and qigong from one knowledgeable, skilled person. but no, i don't expect to get the "internal" from all of that or from the PT or science journals, etc.

PT is not the same as kinesiology. Kinesiology is the study of movement, whereas PT would be more the study of movement pathology and how to fix it based on anatomy and research.

thanks.

Dr. Yang Yang is a traditionally trained disciple of Feng Zhiqiang and recently got his PhD in Kinesiology from the University of Illinois. Currently he seems more focused on the healing aspects of Taiji, but he's someone you might keep an eye on. If he is very successful with his program, that will stimulate more interest in the combination of traditional training and academic research-- but until then your best bet is to learn the traditional stuff and learn the western academic stuff separately and put the pieces together on your own. You learn more that way any how.

awesome. learning both and putting them together would be cool. as i get older, long-term pain-free, enjoyable movement and health is prioritized ahead of "teh deadly" for sure, but that is really cool to have both lenses.

[Chanchu]

http://news.illinois.edu/NEWS/06/0628yang.html

http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-ne ... s-11768-1/

http://www.chentaiji.com/research/kinesresearch.html

Some info about Dr Yang Yang if the links work..

Wonder if he has done a paper on "Tendon's there effect/application during force generation in Tai Chi."

That would be interesting!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesiology

[Mina1387]

[

[Walter Joyce]

Great thread.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Hello
Deinhibition training can cause damaging in nerves and muscles, I want to know about this damaging, describe that please may this damaging cause inflammation or swelling in muscle?
Can this damaging be kind of very severe muscle soreness?
Are there any medicine tests for damaging s distinction about human please tells me detail s tests if it is possible for you?
I know M.R.I and Electromyography can not show autogenic inhibition, which medicine tests can show autogenic inhibition in muscles.
Are there any cure for damaging or illness please describe that too please copy /past your answer (if your answer is part of the site) in this forum, I can not understand English well, sorry.
I can not search an English site.
Thanks very much

Hello Mina1387. I will try to help but I don't know much at all about this.

Deinhibition training should train your nerves, the golgi tendon thingy, to not activate as soon as it does normally. This is done by bodybuilders simply through pushing harder and harder over time. This also occurs in martial arts by training to not reflexively retract or slow down a strike through impact. The way I have trained this is much more mental than physical. I start punching slowly and lightly and trying to feel completely relaxed through impact then slowly increase the speed and power. Any mistakes in alignment that result in pain on impact causes the response to start slowing your strikes down again. So it is important to have proper alignment on impact. Since this is essentially learning how to keep the inhibition response from occuring through intention and will I cannot see a way that nerve damage could occur.

If you manage to exceed your muscles capacity then you will likely cause tearing, straining, or pulling of the muscle. I suppose it might be possible to damage the bone through improper alignment or striking something too hard for the bone to take. It also might be possible to damage the tendons or ligaments. If you do get injured that would set back any deinhibition training significantly IMO. Injuries to most of these parts can cause inflammation and possibly swelling.

Muscle soreness is normal after working a muscle hard in a way it is unfamiliar with. I am not sure exactly what causes it but I don't think muscle soreness itself would be an indicator of more than typical damage to a muscle unless it has unusually severe pain with it.

I hope that helps some.

[Mina1387]

Thanks for your answer; I could not find my answers question, but I could make my questions rightly.