Peter Ralston -- Cheng Hsin in fighting

[Franklin]

i trained with some friends that were influenced by him- (studied with him and under someone who studied with him)
so i really don't know what i am talking about and can not speak for cheng hsin

but my understanding was that the issuing of force would need some pend jin but- where most people thing of pend jin as going outward or upward- this type of training focuses more on the compression of the body's tissue (must keep some structure- but it is aligned with gravity so the compression pushes you into the earth) and the rebound of this compression is the issue- or the expression of peng jin

also when moving in a very relaxed fashion the motive force is coming from the interplay of the compression and release of this compression- so it is a type of peng that lets you move during single practice- sort of letting all the weight compress into one foot and the natural springiness and recoil from this compression will drive the body

anyways just some random thoughts- i would be interested to hear people's thoughts on their understanding from closer to the source

from my time training with my friends it has greatly changed how i view MA practice and power

franklin

[Ian]

Compress tissue?

What tissue are you talking about? How do you propose to compress it? We're not Swiss balls, you know

At the end of the day, if you extend your arm or lift your leg, muscles are contracting to do the work.

That may displease some ("muscles are bad! we are post-muscle!"), but the human body really doesn't move without muscles.

And contraction =/= compression.

[stma]

Muscle tissue is compressed and the joints are compressed. Use gravity to compress yourself into the ground or use moving your body and squeezing it between a rock and a hard spot (the ground and your opponent).

[Ian]

How do you use gravity? Add more gravity?

How do you compress your muscle tissue. You mean contract it?

How do you compress your joints? Release fluid from your ligaments?

[stma]

How do you use gravity?

Don't fight it.

Add more gravity?

Don't be silly.

How do you compress your muscle tissue.

You don't. You allow other forces to compress it.

You mean contract it?

No.

How do you compress your joints?

You don't. You allow other forces to compress it.

Release fluid from your ligaments?

Don't be silly.

[Ian]

What are these 'other forces' that compress the muscle tissue and joints? Where do they come from? Do you have control over them (since they allegedly originate from somewhere other than your muscles and joints)?

edit: If I want to compress my bicep, what forces do I use to do that? If I want to compress my elbow joint, what forces do I use?

[Franklin]

How do you use gravity? Add more gravity?

How do you compress your muscle tissue. You mean contract it?

How do you compress your joints? Release fluid from your ligaments?

can't add more gravity but you can relax more which will let you feel the effect of gravity and let the gravity actually work on your body

the gravity will then "compress" your body
when you connect with an opponent in theory the opponent should compress you into the ground-

it actually is like a swiss ball sort of... or the feeling you get from pushing down on the hood of a car- the shocks will compress and spring back

Do you have control over them (since they allegedly originate from somewhere other than your muscles and joints)?

no you don't have control over them but you have control over where you are in relation to them
from the videos that i have seen of Mr. Ralston that seems to be the key along with relaxation
that and not fighting anything but instead acting from a place of central equilibrium

but like i said i don't really understand this completely but it did change the way i look at practice and generating power
it really is some good stuff but you have to let go...

franklin

[mixjourneyman]

Ian, from hearing Peter talk about this issue, what he said was that the goal is to use the absolute minimum muscle possible during each technique. What it means is that your body essentially stays relaxed through the whole movement. The point is that there is no sudden tensing of muscles in any movements in his style.
You may say its impossible, but I have personally felt it firsthand. Of course some muscles are used. Its impossible to move without them, but Peter practices and advocates a way of moving that requires very little muscle use at all.

[Buddy]

Dave,
I can't comment because I only met him, saw his students at a demo. I thought he was an odd guy but that might only be a reflection of me. I had a friend (Joe might remember) Robert A, who studied with him. He ended up with Kumar for his own reasons. Joe Crandall is the one to comment here, he was with him a very long time, I think.

[JAB]

I can't speak for anyone, but perhaps what he meant is...
The connective tissues (ligaments and tendons) can store energy for a short period of time. So by "compressing" such as coming into a semi squat, you can store potential energy and use that to spring back up! Make sense?
Jake

[somatai]

the other things that compress you are the opponent putting force on you and you being compressed into the earth....hence the tai chi idea of not fighting against....compression is always taking place.....walking is compression, it is tension that gets in the way, and takes us from the natural act of compression........ the human body is a sac of water, push on it and watch it compress

[Walk the Torque]

Who are you callin a sac of water

[Ian]

The point is that there is no sudden tensing of muscles in any movements in his style.
You may say its impossible, but I have personally felt it firsthand.

I wasn't talking about relaxing and conserving energy. Of course I believe in that stuff. Energy conservation is a hallmark of survival amongst all species.

I also believe in compression and release. Obviously we CAN compress and release, similar to a cheetah running or a tiger pouncing (although hardly as graceful and effective).

But I don't believe in compressing MUSCLES or JOINTS for fighting.

Even if you compress something super compressable like a nerf ball, is that rebound alone enough for strike? No of course not. You always have to add a whole lot more yourself.

When a person wakes up, he's usually a fraction of a cm taller because his joints have had a chance to decompress overnight. Throughout the day gravity recompresses the joints. Let me tell you, the joints aren't like fecking Air Jordans. They don't allow you to act like Gumby just because you study IMA.

And how are you supposed to compress your muscles? I mean compress your bicep like taking a balloon 300ft below the sea.

You can't compress muscles like that on your own volition. You can only contract muscles.

[Ian]

I can't speak for anyone, but perhaps what he meant is...
The connective tissues (ligaments and tendons) can store energy for a short period of time. So by "compressing" such as coming into a semi squat, you can store potential energy and use that to spring back up! Make sense?
Jake

What are tendons for? Usually to connect muscle to bone. What are ligaments for? To connect bone to bone.

I find it interesting that you automatically thought ligaments and tendons, when they're obviously there to support the muscles

You can squat without ligaments, but you can't do it without your quads

[Kaitain]

What does it matter? It feels like compression - when someone is really leaning on me, I feel like im being compressed. I was trained to relax with that, to welcome the force and try and let it go through me. I don't give a stuff about physiological explanations for it - that's what it feels like, the result is what counts.

I tell people to feel the "force vector" going from their foot to their hand, and to get their "alignment in sync with the force plane" . I have no idea what that phrase means, but it enables someone to do what I'm trying to get them to do. It's no different to "feel the qi in your fist", it's a method of explanation to inform the teaching the method.

Breaking it down and saying "hah, the muscles can't compress" doesn't actually make a difference from what is felt to be happening. When I compress it is in sync with the force being applied to me by someone else - Im not just contracting in preperation for extending, their push loads my muscles for me. That's how it feels, not necessarily what is happening. It does make a difference to the final result.

The result is what is important.