Stealing an Opponent's Power.

[BruceP]

Dmitri wrote:

The one that has a similar (and good enough) skill, an ability similar to yours and not "letting you in" to redirect their intent to begin with. Friendly or not, -- IMO skill is skill

Like 4 or more crackheads who are intent on doing serious harm to someone? 'Skill is skill'...wow

Real violence often happens too quick and chaotic to do anything but act. You may get a second or less to reference your orientation and determine a clear path of action, but that's about it. You don't feel the blows and other incidental impacts until the adrenaline wears off. The next day, you wonder how you managed to escape a knockout blow or potentially fatal damage. I've never reflected on my 'skill' afterwards. I've always felt lucky and thankful that it wasn't worse. I don't know where guys like you are coming from with your ideas about real fighting. We're on different planets.

I got swarmed at a crackhouse a few years back when I went there to retrieve a freind's son. One guy started screaming at me that I wasn't the kid's dad blah blah blah (a diversion). As I yelled over him not to take another step toward me, I smashed the guy on my 4-o-clock, and things are a little hazy until we were in the front yard where it ended as quickly as it started. I know one thing for sure, their individual and collective powers were stolen the second it began. Do you think any of them were worried about 'letting me in' or me 'redirecting their intent'? It doesn't work like that, Dmitri. You don't have time to assess an enemy's 'skill'. No time to 'observe their weaknesses or preferences' lol

That's why I asked; What opponent? So maybe you'd like to take another crack at it?

In my limited experience, skill is nothing without will.

However, I believe that a good fight plan can simply be to keep moving, in order to avoid a direct comparison of strength or speed with the opponent, while noting any preferences and weaknesses he may reveal, and to then seize any opportunities to take advantage of his openings or mistakes. The fight plan need not always include deliberate attempts to set up favorite attack combinations, or deliberate attempts to draw a specific reaction from the opponent.

Using properly trained principles and techniques in this way makes you unreadable, and can essentially eliminate even subtle telegraphing of your intentions or movements. As such, there is nothing for a skilled opponent to detect, simply because there might not be any conscious initiative. Merely observe his movements closely, and automatically react to whatever he does to the best of your ability. In this manner, you can prevent the opponent from borrowing your power and using it against you.

What a load of crap. Who has time for any of that in a real fight? Holy shit.

[Dmitri]

Like 4 or more crackheads who are intent on doing serious harm to someone?

I'm talking about a specific skill that was mentioned in the first post. If the crackheads have that skill, then this still applies, your relative skill levels (+ luck).

Real violence often happens too quick and chaotic to do anything but act.

I know that, I've had my little share as a kid in a not-exactly-suburban neighborhood back in Russia, followed by 2 years in the Soviet military (which is nothing like the US military, from what little I've heard of it from a couple of friends here, but a lot more like being in prison.) It was not nearly of the intensity or extent of your experience with violence, but enough to know that it's often unpredictable and also that luck has a lot to do with it as well.

I think we're arguing different points.
I was trying to talk about the specific skill mentioned in the first post, -- at least as I understand that skill.

Do you think any of them were worried about 'letting me in' or me 'redirecting their intent'?

That's irrelevant to what I replied... What I meant was, if you're fighting a clone of yourself, you will have as hard a time applying that skill as he will, regardless of the rules of engagement/amount of violence, dealing with the opponent. (Barring some of the "luck" factor like slipping on a banana peel, etc.) If you have that skill well-developed (as I suspect you do) and you're engaged with someone who doesn't -- again, the same applies -- you will have a much easier time dealing with them (compared to the former example) regardless of the rules of engagement, whether they're trying to kill you or to dance with you.

It doesn't work like that, Dmitri. You don't have time to assess an enemy's 'skill'. No time to 'observe their weaknesses or preferences' lol

These are not my words at all Bruce, you're quoting someone else here.

In my limited experience, skill is nothing without will.

I agree and would go even further -- without will, there can be no such skill at all, by its very nature (I'm assuming we're still talking about the specific skill of being able to feel and engage the intent of your opponent.)

[BruceP]

That's irrelevant to what I replied... What I meant was, if you're fighting a clone of yourself, you will have as hard a time applying that skill as he will, regardless of the rules of engagement/amount of violence, dealing with the opponent...

No. It's totally relevant. It depends on the context and the mental/emotional component of physical conflict...what's at stake. If it's all friendly, it's gonna be totally different in terms of motivation, level of threat, how far one can look into the future beyond this day, etc. I may let my clone do his worst if it's friendly. Gonna be a whole different ballgame if I'm forced to defend myself. Neutralizing the opp's intent isn't a skill as much as it is an acquired, intuitive talent/ability. We all possess it. It's central to the training we do over here.

Anyway, you're right - we're probably arguing different points.

I wasn't quoting you, btw. Just generalizing some ideas to make a point.

[Dmitri]

I may let my clone do his worst if it's friendly.

Aha, now I see what you mean; from that view it makes sense actually.

[Doc Stier]

"Real violence often happens too quick and chaotic to do anything but act. You may get a second or less to reference your orientation and determine a clear path of action..."

However, I believe that a good fight plan can simply be to keep moving, in order to avoid a direct comparison of strength or speed with the opponent, while noting any preferences and weaknesses he may reveal, and to then seize any opportunities to take advantage of his openings or mistakes. The fight plan need not always include deliberate attempts to set up favorite attack combinations, or deliberate attempts to draw a specific reaction from the opponent.

Using properly trained principles and techniques in this way makes you unreadable, and can essentially eliminate even subtle telegraphing of your intentions or movements. As such, there is nothing for a skilled opponent to detect, simply because there might not be any conscious initiative. Merely observe his movements closely, and automatically react to whatever he does to the best of your ability. In this manner, you can prevent the opponent from borrowing your power and using it against you.

What a load of crap. Who has time for any of that in a real fight? Holy shit.

Shooter:

I agree completely with your opening sentence, and have stated the exact same view many times on other threads. But your second sentence is a pipe dream, IMO, which essentially refutes your opening statement. Most often, when sudden attacks occur, there won't be enough time "to reference your orientation and determine a clear path of action...", because things happen faster than one can think.

My quote, which you call "a load of crap", was posted in regards to a challenge match or other circumstances where I know in advance that I am definitely going to have to fight someone, and have at least a small amount of time to assess the situation before the games begin, or when already squared off with someone and awaiting initial contact.

It was not said regarding a sudden attack when already confronting someone or regarding an unexpected ambush from a concealed position.

Furthermore, you used my quote without my name and totally out of context from the discussion it was posted in. Pretty cheap shot, man.

Doc

[Chris Fleming]

"What a load of crap. Who has time for any of that in a real fight?"


You were quoting someone who has been in more than his share of real fights, so before you act the internet big man, think about who you are talking to.

[BruceP]

Doc wrote:

Most often, when sudden attacks occur, there won't be enough time "to reference your orientation and determine a clear path of action...", because things happen faster than one can think

Yes, things do happen faster than one can think. Real fighting rarely allows for normal thought processing. But as long as you're conscious there's time to reference your orientation while simultaneously determining a clear path of action. The way we train that referencing over here isn't something we do with thought, or forethought to the actual referencing - it's a visual referencing simultaneous with one's spontaneous response(s) to sudden violence upon themselves. Referencing one's orientation takes no more time than it took for that initial response. That's why I disagree with folks who discuss fighting with terms and concepts one would apply to sport combat. Those terms and concepts are definitely workable some of the time by experienced fighters and athletes and such, but it's not realistic for most folks these days.

My quote, which you call "a load of crap", was posted in regards to a challenge match or other circumstances where I know in advance that I am definitely going to have to fight someone, and have at least a small amount of time to assess the situation before the games begin, or when already squared off with someone and awaiting initial contact

Yeah, I got that. I've just never been that good/lucky/awesome in my own experience with such matters. I've never "squared off" with anyone outside of competition. My old boxing coaches were big on what is now called, "dirty boxing". They just called it good pugilism back then though - never square off, never show your hands, never show your rhythm, etc

Like I'm going to tell a 125lb woman how to assess the strengths and preferences of her attacker as they close in on her while she's trying to make her way across the parkade to the elevator. I think she'd be better off learning to use some neutralizing tools to buy her time and some basic methods of control and escape. I can think of thousands of instances where your post is a load of crap for all but the experienced fighter and game combat athlete. I've never been able to consciously discern anyone's combative dynamic prior to contact the way claim you can. I guess I just suck like that.

[Doc Stier]

Yes, things do happen faster than one can think. Real fighting rarely allows for normal thought processing. But as long as you're conscious there's time to reference your orientation while simultaneously determining a clear path of action. The way we train that referencing over here isn't something we do with thought, or forethought to the actual referencing - it's a visual referencing simultaneous with one's spontaneous response(s) to sudden violence upon themselves. Referencing one's orientation takes no more time than it took for that initial response.

Like I'm going to tell a 125lb woman how to assess the strengths and preferences of her attacker as they close in on her while she's trying to make her way across the parkade to the elevator. I think she'd be better off learning to use some neutralizing tools to buy her time and some basic methods of control and escape. I can think of thousands of instances where your post is a load of crap for all but the experienced fighter and game combat athlete. I've never been able to consciously discern anyone's combative dynamic prior to contact the way claim you can. I guess I just suck like that.

OK. Fair enough. Perhaps it is time to take the training to another level then.

For example, if a person is approached by someone who blocks their exit while standing between two vehicles in a parking garage, or is cornered by someone in a confined indoor space, such as a public lavatory or a stairwell, with no easy avenue of exit or escape, it is imperative to gather as much information as possible in as little time as possible about the person or persons approaching.

Unfortunately, most people are not mentally prepared to assess such situations efficiently, because they haven't been taught how to do so, and may therefore hesitate from uncertainty or freeze with tension and fear, perhaps right up to and even during the time when hands are placed on them. Valuable time was wasted due to lack of proper training in self-control and awareness.

In contrast, when proven methods of mental and spiritual training are sufficiently incorporated into the training program, general mental awareness of one's immediate environment will be vastly enhanced, regarding both people and activities near at hand, and an extra-sensory awareness of unseen threats and dangers will also develop which automatically manifests itself as needed.

It's simply a matter of learning to acknowledge that uneasy 'feeling' that something isn't right in a given situation. It's listening to the intuitive inner voice telling you that everything may not be as it might seem to be at first glance, and then choosing to respond according by putting all systems on high alert, while simultaneously checking the status of centering and rooting, respiration and heart rates, physical and mental tension levels, and so forth. All of these factors can be effectively assessed by anyone, IMO, regardless of size, gender, or skill level, prior to discovering the actual nature of a potential danger or threat and also, as a result, prior to physically dealing with the immediate problem as well.

I believe that the human mind can also be trained to make these assessments without any conscious thought process even in sudden attack situations or ambush assault circumstances. It is simply a matter of programming the deeper subconscious mind to incorporate the process at faster than thought speed as a part of the sudden automatic reaction and spontaneous response phenomenon which everyone has built into their survival instinct. Such programming can update and upgrade the built in survival response program for greater efficiency.

Traditionally, this kind of mental and spiritual training is usually a higher agenda priority within the so called 'internal arts' in which specific meditative, contemplative, and psychological methods are often taught in addition to physical training and martial skills. In this way, developing and using such skills serves to dramatically improve one's ability to steal the opponent's power to harm them, IMO.

Doc

[Qin'sEmporium]

Yes, things do happen faster than one can think. Real fighting rarely allows for normal thought processing. But as long as you're conscious there's time to reference your orientation while simultaneously determining a clear path of action. The way we train that referencing over here isn't something we do with thought, or forethought to the actual referencing - it's a visual referencing simultaneous with one's spontaneous response(s) to sudden violence upon themselves. Referencing one's orientation takes no more time than it took for that initial response.

Like I'm going to tell a 125lb woman how to assess the strengths and preferences of her attacker as they close in on her while she's trying to make her way across the parkade to the elevator. I think she'd be better off learning to use some neutralizing tools to buy her time and some basic methods of control and escape. I can think of thousands of instances where your post is a load of crap for all but the experienced fighter and game combat athlete. I've never been able to consciously discern anyone's combative dynamic prior to contact the way claim you can. I guess I just suck like that.

OK. Fair enough. Perhaps it is time to take the training to another level then.

For example, if a person is approached by someone who blocks their exit while standing between two vehicles in a parking garage, or is cornered by someone in a confined indoor space, such as a public lavatory or a stairwell, with no easy avenue of exit or escape, it is imperative to gather as much information as possible in as little time as possible about the person or persons approaching.

Unfortunately, most people are not mentally prepared to assess such situations efficiently, because they haven't been taught how to do so, and may therefore hesitate from uncertainty or freeze with tension and fear, perhaps right up to and even during the time when hands are placed on them. Valuable time was wasted due to lack of proper training in self-control and awareness.

In contrast, when proven methods of mental and spiritual training are sufficiently incorporated into the training program, general mental awareness of one's immediate environment will be vastly enhanced, regarding both people and activities near at hand, and an extra-sensory awareness of unseen threats and dangers will also develop which automatically manifests itself as needed.

It's simply a matter of learning to acknowledge that uneasy 'feeling' that something isn't right in a given situation. It's listening to the intuitive inner voice telling you that everything may not be as it might seem to be at first glance, and then choosing to respond according by putting all systems on high alert, while simultaneously checking the status of centering and rooting, respiration and heart rates, physical and mental tension levels, and so forth. All of these factors can be effectively assessed by anyone, IMO, regardless of size, gender, or skill level, prior to discovering the actual nature of a potential danger or threat and also, as a result, prior to physically dealing with the immediate problem as well.

I believe that the human mind can also be trained to make these assessments without any conscious thought process even in sudden attack situations or ambush assault circumstances. It is simply a matter of programming the deeper subconscious mind to incorporate the process at faster than thought speed as a part of the sudden automatic reaction and spontaneous response phenomenon which everyone has built into their survival instinct. Such programming can update and upgrade the built in survival response program for greater efficiency.

Traditionally, this kind of mental and spiritual training is usually a higher agenda priority within the so called 'internal arts' in which specific meditative, contemplative, and psychological methods are often taught in addition to physical training and martial skills. In this way, developing and using such skills serves to dramatically improve one's ability to steal the opponent's power to harm them, IMO.

Doc

Further words would sully this perfect expression....

[Daniel]

Extremly good post, Doc. Thank you.



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Qin'sEmporium]

Dear Sifu Stier

Don't Lean in any direction;
suddenly appear,
suddenly disappear.(Taijiquan Lun)

And;

Up and down,
front or back,
left or right, are all the same.

These are all yi (mind/intention) and not external.(Taijiquan Jing).

Thanks

[BruceP]

Yes, it is a good post. I liked this in particular:

Doc wrote:

I believe that the human mind can also be trained to make these assessments without any conscious thought process even in sudden attack situations or ambush assault circumstances. It is simply a matter of programming the deeper subconscious mind to incorporate the process at faster than thought speed as a part of the sudden automatic reaction and spontaneous response phenomenon which everyone has built into their survival instinct. Such programming can update and upgrade the built in survival response program for greater efficiency

I'm glad you've gone from calling this a pipe dream

You may get a second or less to reference your orientation and determine a clear path of action

to where you're agreeing with me.

I still stand by what I wrote about your post being a load of crap. It's just not realistic for most people.

[johnrieber]

sounds like you're both talking about the difference between the way that shen/yi reacts in a bad situation, versus the way the conscious analytical mind reacts.

if i'm confused, it wouldn't be the first time.

[Doc Stier]

Doc wrote:

I believe that the human mind can also be trained to make these assessments without any conscious thought process even in sudden attack situations or ambush assault circumstances. It is simply a matter of programming the deeper subconscious mind to incorporate the process at faster than thought speed as a part of the sudden automatic reaction and spontaneous response phenomenon which everyone has built into their survival instinct. Such programming can update and upgrade the built in survival response program for greater efficiency

I'm glad you've gone from calling this a pipe dream

You may get a second or less to reference your orientation and determine a clear path of action

to where you're agreeing with me.

Not at all. I still don't agree with that statement as it is worded. The pipe dream is believing that "reference your orientation and determine a clear path of action" can be the result of conscious awareness and choice in sudden assault situations, rather than an unconsciously directed and automatically manifested phenomenon. The words "reference" and "determine" clearly imply that the conscious mind is assessing the situation and willfully selecting the most appropriate course of action, which is not what I was describing. My past personal experiences in ambush situations indicate that it doesn't happen that way. Sorry!

As for the rest, think what you will, and so be it. Good luck in your next real emergency.

Doc

[BruceP]

I still don't agree with that statement as it is worded

Actually, as it it is worded and reads; "You may get a second or less to reference your orientation and determine a clear path of action, but that's about it", it implies that you may only get a moment to orient yourself before you MUST take a clear path of action. How is that a pipe dream?

Even in the chaos of sudden attack, a person can create that second to reference orientation and determine a clear path of action without conscious thought - as long as they're conscious/awake/not unconscious, and not to be confused with subconscious. As already stated, that referencing as we train it over here takes no more time than it takes to move through the intitial spontaneous response to being suddenly attacked. I already said that somewhere before, didn't I? Oh yeah, here it is:

The way we train that referencing over here isn't something we do with thought, or forethought to the actual referencing - it's a visual referencing simultaneous with one's spontaneous response(s) to sudden violence upon themselves

Kinda what you said, no?

Sorry, Doc, this reads like dialogue in a movie;

...while noting any preferences and weaknesses he may reveal, and to then seize any opportunities to take advantage of his openings or mistakes

You make it sound like a protracted sport match or a fantasy duel. Your corner watches that stuff in sport, and I've never seen a one-on-one duel/scrap where one guy is relaxed and mindful enough to work up a strategy based on their opp's defincies in the 30-60 or so seconds it takes for most real duels to play out. The words clearly imply that the conscious mind is assessing the situation and willfully selecting the most appropriate course of action, which is not what I was describing. My past personal experiences in dueling situations indicate that it doesn't happen that way. Sorry!