Stealing an Opponent's Power.

[Doc Stier]

"....connect with the opponents spine at first contact....use this connection/circuit....and move this now new extension of myself anywhere I want. hence I steal his power."

Dale:

I like your brief summation here, and basically agree with you, but I perceive a couple of things a bit differently.

Perhaps this is a matter of semantics, but I strive to locate and control the opponent's center of gravity upon contact at close quarters, and then use my unified control of his center and root in order to unbalance him, uproot him, and apply countermeasures.

I think of this more as a quick process of uniting with his own body control, speed, and power, rather than stealing it, and then following it or leading it until the opportunity to finish him arises.

Doc

[somatai]

i agree with Doc & Dale, but must reiterate what Dmitri said, because that is easy if the skill factor is well in your favor, but very difficult when the playing field is level, still what one is always striving for, but very hard to actualize against a skilled opponent.

[Wanderingdragon]

If you confuse your opponents center it is very difficult, not impossible for someone of skill, for them to regain a sense of control of their own movement, let alone take control of a situation. An anology is rebalancing a pail of water once the water is sloshed around, now consider someone slapping the bottom of the pail every time you think you've got it balanced. This is where the circling and spinning footwork of bagua are very useful, the centrifugal forces make it easier to regain your center while avoiding your opponents efforts to "slosh the water" so to speak.

[klonk]

I wonder...

I broach this topic with some dread, because it is unpopular.

Have you ever worked your kung fu on someone who doesn't know anything?

A common sense response to some (not all) renditions of WIld Horse Parts Mane would be to grab our arm, kick you twice in the ass and offer to buy you a beer for being a good sport.

[bailewen]

Last time I used it my "opponent" admitted I "won" that day.

He did his best to grab my arm. Then I hooked his lead leg with my rear hand and dumped him on the gravel.

Stealing power is "basic". It's really difficult but also really basic. When teaching, I always say that if I am doing this right, you should not feel overpowered. You should feel as though your own power just went away somehow. It's like one of those bad dreams where you are running away from something but in slow motion. Just no power to use.

[klonk]

Good! Now we are approaching the threshold of talking about how IMA works. We are discussing why it sometimes doesn't.

[Qin'sEmporium]

Very interesting. There seems to be a preponderance of 'gentle' stealing - which is fine for some situations and of course training. But stealing is not always 'gentle', by definition, it must also be abrupt and final in some situations.

The argument of differences between skill levels applies to all areas of martial practice and beyond. We are all taught by those who know and 'see' more. That is, all methods begin at the simplest level, and are slowly developed. Exposure to greater skill is essential.

But the other great factor, that changes the odds, is that of circumstance. And circumstance has two broad aspects; inner disposition (mind state), and outer condition (the physical situation one is in). When the outer environment is 'equal' such as a training hall or mat - then the skill agrument is at its most apparent. Those with greater skill, will dominate those with lesser skill. If it is a club or school, then the inner psychological structure will also support this outer appearance. It is astructure designed to help humans learn - but it can also be a trap. Structured learning takes you so far.

The 'familiar' becomes something of a safety zone for a practitioner. The internal practitioner should specialise in presenting the 'unfamiliar' to an opponent. The unfamiliar befuddles and confuses the inner state, and this creates a corresponding physical manifestation. An environment outside the training zone, is outside of the comfort zone. Training for many, always occurs 'over there', but seldom 'here'.

This is subtle; the externalst approach is to present a small set of movements coupled with a youtube clip of something approaching those movements being applied in competition. The application is viewed as justifying a momentary belief in those movements. The 'belief' changes, and the fight goes on, and different techniques are required, etc. It is a simple formular that on the surfaces appears to appeal to 'common sense'. Take away the unnatural sporting environment, where the mat or ring is an area of equality ensured by a set of shared rules, and things do not go to plan. Changing the outer situaton, changes the emphasis upon exactly what is required in combat.

Stealing an opponent's energy is not just physical, it is also taking away the opponent's sense of confidence and self-assuredness when they confront you as a physical threat. This is not to demean an opponent, but to 'neutralise' the aggressive tendency.

Thank you

[BruceP]

Derek, I have nothing but respect for you and really like the path you're taking, but c'mon, man.

...but very hard to actualize against a skilled opponent

What opponent? The one who's trying to smash your face in? Or the one who's accomodating and playing friendly?

I must have misunderstood the title of this thread. I don't know how someone's physical power can be stolen without first blending with the mind/intent of their movement (the source?). Of course that's hard to do with someone of equal or higher skill than yours, who's playing at a comfortable level of noncompliance. I just wonder after reading the responses here if anyone has a repeatable formula/approach to training it for a more live setting, like the founders did when they developed these ideas around actual combat?

Sport combat isn't so sterile that it can't be explored in that setting, but it isn't really the environment one can get the most from either. It takes a properly structured approach which, oddly enough, seems to be the laughing stock of most tjq folks here. They laugh at what makes it truly internal. Irony, man...

[Dale Dugas]

"....connect with the opponents spine at first contact....use this connection/circuit....and move this now new extension of myself anywhere I want. hence I steal his power."

Dale:

I like your brief summation here, and basically agree with you, but I perceive a couple of things a bit differently.

Perhaps this is a matter of semantics, but I strive to locate and control the opponent's center of gravity upon contact at close quarters, and then use my unified control of his center and root in order to unbalance him, uproot him, and apply countermeasures.

I think of this more as a quick process of uniting with his own body control, speed, and power, rather than stealing it, and then following it or leading it until the opportunity to finish him arises.

Doc

I agree wholeheartedly.

Thanks for helping me with better semantics.

[somatai]

Derek, I have nothing but respect for you and really like the path you're taking, but c'mon, man.

...but very hard to actualize against a skilled opponent

What opponent? The one who's trying to smash your face in? Or the one who's accomodating and playing friendly?

I must have misunderstood the title of this thread. I don't know how someone's physical power can be stolen without first blending with the mind/intent of their movement (the source?). Of course that's hard to do with someone of equal or higher skill than yours, who's playing at a comfortable level of noncompliance. I just wonder after reading the responses here if anyone has a repeatable formula/approach to training it for a more live setting, like the founders did when they developed these ideas around actual combat?

Sport combat isn't so sterile that it can't be explored in that setting, but it isn't really the environment one can get the most from either. It takes a properly structured approach which, oddly enough, seems to be the laughing stock of most tjq folks here. They laugh at what makes it truly internal. Irony, man...

Bruce, I am glad to see you back on the board and look forward to pondering your posts, must do that with this one now.

[Dmitri]

...but very hard to actualize against a skilled opponent

What opponent? The one who's trying to smash your face in? Or the one who's accomodating and playing friendly?

The one that has a similar (and good enough) skill, an ability similar to yours and not "letting you in" to redirect their intent to begin with. Friendly or not, -- IMO skill is skill.

[Yin]

Is this the most crucial skill of an internal stylist - regardless of style or expression? The ability to stop an opponent at source, a subtle ability that by-passes mere physical strength. If not, then the externalists will always put a greater value on the presence of obvious strength at first contact.

Thanks

It is the most crucial skill of any martial artist, internal or external. The ability to project the aura that says mess with me and you'll regret it. It doesn't have to be overtly aggressive or rude, in fact it is far more effective if it is coupled with an unassuming and open manner. However it is a manifestation of your persona, but many years of physical and psychological training are required to get to that level of confidence in self.

[Wanderingdragon]

Is this the most crucial skill of an internal stylist - regardless of style or expression? The ability to stop an opponent at source, a subtle ability that by-passes mere physical strength. If not, then the externalists will always put a greater value on the presence of obvious strength at first contact.

Thanks

It is the most crucial skill of any martial artist, internal or external. The ability to project the aura that says mess with me and you'll regret it. It doesn't have to be overtly aggressive or rude, in fact it is far more effective if it is coupled with an unassuming and open manner. However it is a manifestation of your persona, but many years of physical and psychological training are required to get to that level of confidence in self.

I agree with the idea of this being part of who you are "persona" But I would disagree with the training necessary. In my life I have always carried myself in such a way that people hesitate to "try", I have gone into some of the toughest neighborhoods or bars alone and took no fear wiht me. I began studying Ma in my 20's not to learn to fight but to learn to fight with less effort. Many time as an adult some of the nastiest looking thug types there are have adressed me as "Officer", or "5 "O"",they think I'm the police simply because of the way I carry myself. I think the attitude with or without training is "I won't fuck with you , but I won't be fucked with". This, though, is a very external attitude and , though it works , it took IMA to help me change it to "Awww come on man, do we have to do this"

[johnwang]

Is this the most crucial skill of an internal stylist - regardless of style or expression? The ability to stop an opponent at source,

SC basic form #1 diagonal strike - You strike at your opponent's shoulder when he punches at you. If you don't give your opponent a chance to generate momentum, he can't Fajin.

[Wanderingdragon]

Is this the most crucial skill of an internal stylist - regardless of style or expression? The ability to stop an opponent at source,

SC basic form #1 diagonal strike - You strike at your opponent's shoulder when he punches at you. If you don't give your opponent a chance to generate momentum, he can't Fajin.

case in point, as you feel the touch on your shoulder you "steal that power", by rolling it into your other hand as you strike to the ribs, the power goes through your shoulder ,across your back, down your arm into your fist , "fa jin mate"