Question For Ken Fish

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Question For Ken Fish

Postby cerebus on Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:33 pm

Hello Dr. Fish. I was just wondering, which forms did Chang Chun Feng teach in his Hsing-I curriculum? I'm curious because the Hsing-I I learned comes from the Hung I Hsiang/ Hsu Hong Ji lineage and I'm wondering which forms were original to the style and which ones were added by Hung I Hsiang. Thanks in advance!

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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby kenneth fish on Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:32 am

At the risk of getting flack for this, here is the list of forms Xingyi forms that were taught by master Zhang (this is forms only, there were many solo and paired training drills, as well as equipment exercises):

Five Elements
Five elements linked (solo and paired)
12 animals
Ba Shou (eight hands) (a set of repetitive drills kind of like Tan Tui)
Ba Shi ("grasping" form)
Fighting Chicken
Ai Shen Pao (An Shen Pao)
Shi Er Hongchui (12 great hammers)
Shi Da Tiangan (Ten Celestial Stems)
Qi Mei Gun (eyebrow height staff)
Straight sword
Broadsword
Stick (2 lengths)
Fengchi Chan (Pheonix Tail Crescent Moon and Spade)

He may have taught Bashi (eight postures) and Zashichui (mixed form) early on, but it seemed to have fallen out of the repetoire.
Last edited by kenneth fish on Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby cerebus on Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:28 am

Hello Ken. I hope no one gives you any flack for your answer (I can't imagine they would). Thank you for the response. This was pretty close to what I had figured was probably the curriculum, though I was a little surprised to see the Ba Shou in there. And I would have expected the Bashi and Zashichui to have been more a part of the curriculum, but as you said they may have fallen from the repetoire. Thanks again! :)

PS: Were there multiple versions taught of some of the animals? If so, how many? Sorry for all the questions, but I like to know all I can about my chosen art, including its history and development.
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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby kenneth fish on Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:04 am

Yes, there were some variations taught on the animals - dragon, tiger (there are a total of 8), swallow, monkey, as well as variations on the 5 elements (but those are more along the lines of technique drills to make obvious what is implied in the basic 5 elements). Ba Shou, oddly, was taught to me late in the game - my teacher said "since you are going to be teaching, you should know these foundation drills".
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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby cerebus on Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:20 am

Great! Many thanks Dr. Fish...
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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby JessOBrien on Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:47 am

Cool list! Many of those I've never seen.

Is the Ba Shou listed here the same as Tang Shou Tao's Ba Shou that goes with Ba Bu Da, Ba Ti, Ba Lian Shou, Ba Tang Chuan, etc? I had assumed that those were all created by Hong Yi Xiang or Xu Hong Ji.

Thanks,
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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby cerebus on Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:57 am

The only ones there that I'm unfamiliar with are the weapons sets. And yeah, I too had assumed that the Ba Shou had been created by Hung I Hsiang. I think it's great that Chang taught it previous to Hung (providing it is the same, I'm guessing it would be...)
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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby cerebus on Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:02 pm

Jess, have you seen Allen Pittman's video of this lineage of Hsing-I? Since he learned from Hung I-Mien, there are none of the Tang Shou Tao forms that Hung I Hsiang had created. Pittman's vid includes the Ba Shou, and it seems to be the same as what Hung I Hsiang passed down.
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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby kenneth fish on Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:07 pm

The Bashou is eight sets of repetitive movements, similar to Tantui. The first set is from a standing position, feet together, shoulders back, fists at chest height. You then hop down into a low horse stance and punch out to both sides, then swing both fists up the center line as if a double uppercut, then turn and grasp to the left with both hands in qinglongtanzhua, pull back and down to the side as you kick with the forward foot, sweep, and hop forward (to the right) into a low horse stance. Sound familiar?

The set also includes 5 variations on pounding (beng), variations on Tuo (alligator), snake, and fighting chicken.
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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby cerebus on Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:30 pm

kenneth fish wrote:The Bashou is eight sets of repetitive movements, similar to Tantui. The first set is from a standing position, feet together, shoulders back, fists at chest height. You then hop down into a low horse stance and punch out to both sides, then swing both fists up the center line as if a double uppercut, then turn and grasp to the left with both hands in qinglongtanzhua, pull back and down to the side as you kick with the forward foot, sweep, and hop forward (to the right) into a low horse stance. Sound familiar?

The set also includes 5 variations on pounding (beng), variations on Tuo (alligator), snake, and fighting chicken.


Yup. Sounds like the same one...
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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby JessOBrien on Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:20 pm

Cool! Fun to trace the history of each school, it's amazing how far Master Zhang's martial arts have spread in the world.

Thanks,

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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby cerebus on Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:58 pm

Heh, heh! Hey Jess! What a small world, running into you at the cafe this morning. I wish the weather would stay nice for Sundays so I can see some of my other EF peeps...
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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby Felipe Bidó on Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:49 pm

Any info about the "Ten Celestial Stems"?. Is it a form or a set of exercises?
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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby cerebus on Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:55 pm

The Tien Gan (as I learned them, at least) are a series of exercises. A type of jibengong/ body movement training, sometimes practiced as a type of chi gung. Allen Pittman has a good article on the subject on his website...

But I'd definitely like to hear what Dr. Fish has to say about the subject...
Last edited by cerebus on Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Question For Ken Fish

Postby Simon on Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:36 am

The Bashou sounds interesting has anyone got video of the one you talking about.
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