bagua: heel toe vs. flat foot stepping

[bruce]

hey ya'all,

what are some opinions about the pros/cons of heel toe stepping vs. flat foot stepping in bagua?

why do some "mud step" and others "natural step"?

for example in jrq book he advises that the toe and heel should touch the ground at the same time but i have seen some people do it both ways even within the same form run through.

for me it seems that if i am "stealing space" like stepping in between your feet to attack setting my foot toes/heel at the same time might be more "solid" but for general movement heel toe seems better for me.

if i am on a slippery surface it seems more stable to step with the heel and toe landing at the same time.

on the other hand it seems i can step faster using heel toe ...

thoughts, opinions?

[JusticeZero]

Well, we (different art) learned to do toe first, either flat foot or toe-heel; if you must rotate the foot, do it over the ball of the foot, not the heel, and lift the heel to do it..
Reason: If you put down the heel, then let the toe come down later or leave the toe up, it telegraphs your core movement badly to the point of making a nice arrow pointing exactly where you plan to go next.
We were made believers after that one insight let one of our guys pretty much destroy someone far senior to them who had that bad habit.
I suspect that it might not be an art-specific issue, considering the positions that the issue was being seen.

[Doc Stier]

hey ya'all,

what are some opinions about the pros/cons of heel toe stepping vs. flat foot stepping in bagua?

why do some "mud step" and others "natural step"?

for example in jrq book he advises that the toe and heel should touch the ground at the same time but i have seen some people do it both ways even within the same form run through.

for me it seems that if i am "stealing space" like stepping in between your feet to attack setting my foot toes/heel at the same time might be more "solid" but for general movement heel toe seems better for me.

if i am on a slippery surface it seems more stable to step with the heel and toe landing at the same time.

on the other hand it seems i can step faster using heel toe ...

thoughts, opinions?

Bruce:

I completely agree with you.

In the Sun Lu-Tang Style that I learned, speed of mobility is the greatest agenda priority for Pa-Kua Chuan footwork.

As a result, Master Sun, whose footwork was incredibly fast, recommended natural heel to toe stepping for normal footwork, since it is easier to execute with full speed of mobility on most ground or floor surfaces in everyday footwear.

The so-called 'mud sliding step' is taught in Sun's style as a specialized stepping method for use on slippery surfaces such as mud, wet floors, gas or oil spills, snow, ice, sand, loose dirt, small stones, gravel covered ground, wet grass, and so forth. In these conditions, it is oftentimes a safer and more secure stepping method, and may work better than a natural step does.

Otherwise, it was very fast, natural heel to toe footwork that enabled Sifu Sun to be the blur of movement which suddenly passed his opponent to the side and rear in the blink of an eye. Surprise!

Now you see him....and now you don't!

Doc

[Doc Stier]

If you put down the heel, then let the toe come down later or leave the toe up, it telegraphs your core movement badly to the point of making a nice arrow pointing exactly where you plan to go next.

Justice:

That might be true if I were walking slowly and precisely in a lower basin stance, but I don't see that happening when the footwork is performed at a very rapid speed, even if the opponent is directly looking only at my footwork, and certainly not if they are also attempting to keep track of what my arms and hands are doing as well.

Sorry!

Doc

[mixjourneyman]

Here is what I have taken away from it if its worth anything to you:
Mud stepping develops the legs in ways that toe heal stepping never can. Mudstepping forces the legs to stretch out, sink down, and generally "lengthen" and "compact". It is a really valuable exercise for developing the legs to get fast footwork and also to get flexible. OTOH, after mastering mudstepping one's footwork should become more natural and the toe doesn't have to always touch down on every step. I'm not there yet, but thats what I've been told by those in the know.

[johnwang]

i can step faster using heel toe ...

You will take chance to be scooped. If you walk in the woods all by yourself, you can walk anyway you like. When you are facing an opponent, you try not to give him any advantage on you. Old teachers always suggest the best way to move your feet in front of your opponent is just like to move your feet on the frozen lake.

[Doc Stier]

Mud stepping develops the legs in ways that toe heal stepping never can. Mud stepping forces the legs to stretch out, sink down, and generally "lengthen" and "compact". It is a really valuable exercise for developing the legs to get fast footwork and also to get flexible.

A solid 45-60 minutes of specific stretching exercises each day will achieve those goals much faster and better than 'mud stepping' will, IMO.

I train footwork through daily circle walking and form sets practice specifically in order to acquire the footwork skills needed for swift mobility in combat, not primarily for other physical and athletic benefits.

Doc

[mixjourneyman]

And yet those direct skills obtained through mud walking become applicable to combat after a few years of training them (for instance, after I started walking for around 40 minutes a day in a middle posture I started to be able to throw people much more easily). I don't think this should be an either or discussion. Both methods have their merits. Cheng Tinghua mud stepped for a reason, so did his sons. Sun Lutang had a different method that worked for him and many others, both are good ways to train.

[Walk the Torque]

i can step faster using heel toe ...

You will take chance to be scooped. If you walk in the woods all by yourself, you can walk anyway you like. When you are facing an opponent, you try not to give him any advantage on you. Old teachers always suggest the best way to move your feet in front of your opponent is just like to move your feet on the frozen lake.

For me this is a major reason for learning this stepping ability. Power generation is another. Though in solo/forms practice I would say it applys even more to the form movements as appossed to walking alone.

When we are in a sparring (non-co-oprative) environment, our stepping can be quite small and subject to the necessities of the situation. If we are jostled, pulled, pushed, struck or in any other way impinged upon, the requirement to find firm footing is (at least the way I do it) of paramount importance. Not only that, but this is what one would naturally do to obtain a position of strength in order to carry out an adequate defense or launch an attack; so why not start with that premis and practice the movement skills that will get your feet (let alone you) from point A to point B in the least possible time?

Also, speaking of positions of strength; apart from the "internal" training that mud step provides (linking entire leg connections to psoas muscle groups), it also provides the platform for a method of power generation, maybe not particular to, but definately well developed by Bagua Zhang.

One of the components of generating power from the feet in an upward direction, is to apply pressure or force to the ball of the foot. Bagua's mud step does this in a way designed to omit the need to stop-sink/load-and push off the ball to provide the upward force. It can do this because as the foot is landing, the earth is "struck" by the ball (or more spicifically, as I learnt it, KI 1) to provide the rebound of force generated from the center (dantien). The stepping action performs a sort of friction between the foot and floor that allows a transfer of force upward toward the body part being used to express the power.

The utter beauty of this stepping method is of course the well known "dynamic rooting", that allows the practitioner to constantly move from one place to another and deliver short range power simultaniously, without the necessity to stop on a given spot.

This is only one of three aspects of mud stepping (as I learnt it), but very much distinguishes the methods used by a majority of martial arts to generate power, and Bagua.

[Walk the Torque]

hey ya'all,

what are some opinions about the pros/cons of heel toe stepping vs. flat foot stepping in bagua?

why do some "mud step" and others "natural step"?

Bruce,

Pros- As stated above.
Cons - takes many hours of practice to pull off.

However, once achieved, one can swith from mud to natural and back again with ease. Not so if mud step is not practiced.

All the best

Conn

[David Boxen]

Doc,
It seems to me that Sun style and Jiulong baguazhang share the same attitude toward how to practice and what is important for combat.

[oldtyger]

Tangnibu, mudstepping, obviously has significance in bagua. I learned a variation that is often called the crane step because we practice lifting the foot pretty high and coming down flat footed. This is part of the basic circle walking training--not something we would actually use in combat. If you practice this method a lot--years--in high, middle, and low stances, you will develop some interesting stepping skills--lightness, mobility, rooting and heaviness. We also practiced a running method that involves pushing off the forward foot and propelling yourself while landing on the other foot. One of my friends could easily outmaneuver someone much greater in overall internal martial arts skill due to this type of training--in the end, our other friend connected into him and the game was over but the difference in stepping ability was noted.

When I met He Jinbao and his students, they pretty much all laughed at my circle walking. That lineage seems to prefer the natural heel-to-toe stepping(lion step). I was also told--but never formally taught in the bagua I practice--that I should be able to do natural stepping and keep my structure and root. As far as speed, my teachers using the flat footed method were always blazingly fast compared to me and Gong Baozhai was said to be able to do mudstepping at a pace that matched a normal person's run.

IMO, it's good to train in as many methods that can produce results you want. I've even tried to teach myself the more traditional mudstepping, sometimes called snake step I think, in this regard. I'm certain that each lineage has a reason for preference of stepping and there are probably disadvantages and advantages to them all.

[johnwang]

If you train leg bite, you will find out that you don't have the luxury for heel-to-toe-stepping. If you train for health, you can step anyway you like. The moment you train for combat, you have to modify it to fit your need.

[Doc Stier]

If you train leg bite, you will find out that you don't have the luxury for heel-to-toe-stepping.

You lost me there, John.

What exactly does that mean?

Doc

[johnwang]

There are 2 ways to do leg bite. One way is you step in and then turn your foot and bite on the inside of your opponent's leg. This usually give your opponent too much time to escape. The other way is pretty much like ice skating. If you try to do a sharp curve turn, you can "slide" the bottom of your foot (flat), borrow that momentum, you can use your shin to "smash" into the inside of your opponent's leg (衝 Chong - dash against). It's like a kick but keep your foot "slide" on the ground. If you use heel-to-toe stepping, you won't be able to generate that momentum. At 0.15 - 0.18 you can see 2 leg bites there. The main purpose for leg bite is to force your opponent to step back.

http://johnswang.com/Chang_sc_3.WMV