bagua: heel toe vs. flat foot stepping

[edededed]

Tangnibu, mudstepping, obviously has significance in bagua. I learned a variation that is often called the crane step because we practice lifting the foot pretty high and coming down flat footed. This is part of the basic circle walking training--not something we would actually use in combat. If you practice this method a lot--years--in high, middle, and low stances, you will develop some interesting stepping skills--lightness, mobility, rooting and heaviness. We also practiced a running method that involves pushing off the forward foot and propelling yourself while landing on the other foot. One of my friends could easily outmaneuver someone much greater in overall internal martial arts skill due to this type of training--in the end, our other friend connected into him and the game was over but the difference in stepping ability was noted.

When I met He Jinbao and his students, they pretty much all laughed at my circle walking. That lineage seems to prefer the natural heel-to-toe stepping(lion step). I was also told--but never formally taught in the bagua I practice--that I should be able to do natural stepping and keep my structure and root. As far as speed, my teachers using the flat footed method were always blazingly fast compared to me and Gong Baozhai was said to be able to do mudstepping at a pace that matched a normal person's run.

IMO, it's good to train in as many methods that can produce results you want. I've even tried to teach myself the more traditional mudstepping, sometimes called snake step I think, in this regard. I'm certain that each lineage has a reason for preference of stepping and there are probably disadvantages and advantages to them all.

Good post!

Crane stepping may have been a more archaic form of mudstepping; most principles are similar, besides the height that the legs are raised, obviously.

John also makes a good point as well - those sound quite similar to some kinds of bagua kicks.

[D_Glenn]

Tangnibu, mudstepping, obviously has significance in bagua. I learned a variation that is often called the crane step because we practice lifting the foot pretty high and coming down flat footed. This is part of the basic circle walking training--not something we would actually use in combat. If you practice this method a lot--years--in high, middle, and low stances, you will develop some interesting stepping skills--lightness, mobility, rooting and heaviness. We also practiced a running method that involves pushing off the forward foot and propelling yourself while landing on the other foot. One of my friends could easily outmaneuver someone much greater in overall internal martial arts skill due to this type of training--in the end, our other friend connected into him and the game was over but the difference in stepping ability was noted.

When I met He Jinbao and his students, they pretty much all laughed at my circle walking. That lineage seems to prefer the natural heel-to-toe stepping(lion step). I was also told--but never formally taught in the bagua I practice--that I should be able to do natural stepping and keep my structure and root. As far as speed, my teachers using the flat footed method were always blazingly fast compared to me and Gong Baozhai was said to be able to do mudstepping at a pace that matched a normal person's run.

IMO, it's good to train in as many methods that can produce results you want. I've even tried to teach myself the more traditional mudstepping, sometimes called snake step I think, in this regard. I'm certain that each lineage has a reason for preference of stepping and there are probably disadvantages and advantages to them all.

In yin style bagua of He Jinbao there is natural-stepping 'ziran bu' which turns into 'chelun bu' (wheel stepping) of the lion which doesn't have 'foot sweeps' instead it wants to step like a giant wheel rolling over and through the opponents legs without stopping and to be standing where the opponent used to be standing. But if you were learning phoenix you would do Crane stepping 'he bu' which is where the foot lifts flat, hovers slightly over the ground and sets flat but can also be trained with the knee lifting but the foot is still flat. It's in the phoenix and it's method of fighting where the 'foot sweeps' come in to play and the shape and feel of crane stepping is good for hooking and sweeping at the opponent's ankles. There is also 'tui bu' (withdrawing stepping), 'bai bu' swinging stepping, 'kou bu' hooking stepping, Snake stepping- 'tangshui bu' (dripping water stepping) which is extreme toe-to-heel stepping, 'wo bu' crouching low and long stepping it all depends on what you're training for and wanting to develop, the thing is that all these stepping methods fall under the category of being 'tangnibu', the key word being 'tang' 蹚- which means 'wade through mud or water', wade inherently means that it is deep and you need to step sure-footed, heavy in the feet as if you were walking down a mountainside, and press forward through the hips as if you're going against resistance and most importantly that when a foot is placed on the ground it's like it's stuck in thick mud.

In our bagua there is a saying "The quickest way to develop a sickness is to mimic the behavior of the sick." Only sickly people shuffle, slide, and drag their feet across the ground, misconstrue the meaning of 'tangnibu' to mean sliding the feet across the ground 'at one's own risk'.

On application it all depends on the situation one very basic concept is that if you are in close and attacking the legs as well as attacking with the arms then if you step behind the opponent's knee you use heel-to-toe but if you step in front of the opponent's knee you use toe-to-heel.


.

[bruce]

for me it seems that if i am "stealing space" like stepping in between your feet to attack setting my foot toes/heel at the same time might be more "solid" but for general movement heel toe seems better for me.

i think this ties in to what john is saying about leg biting etc ...

[oldtyger]

[quote="D_Glenn
In yin style bagua of He Jinbao there is natural-stepping 'ziran bu' which turns into 'chelun bu' (wheel stepping) of the lion which doesn't have 'foot sweeps' instead it wants to step like a giant wheel rolling over and through the opponents legs without stopping and to be standing where the opponent used to be standing. But if you were learning phoenix you would do Crane stepping 'he bu' which is where the foot lifts flat, hovers slightly over the ground and sets flat but can also be trained with the knee lifting but the foot is still flat. It's in the phoenix and it's method of fighting where the 'foot sweeps' come in to play and the shape and feel of crane stepping is good for hooking and sweeping at the opponent's ankles. There is also 'tui bu' (withdrawing stepping), 'bai bu' swinging stepping, 'kou bu' hooking stepping, Snake stepping- 'tangshui bu' (dripping water stepping) which is extreme toe-to-heel stepping, 'wo bu' crouching low and long stepping it all depends on what you're training for and wanting to develop, the thing is that all these stepping methods fall under the category of being 'tangnibu', the key word being 'tang' 蹚- which means 'wade through mud or water', wade inherently means that it is deep and you need to step sure-footed, heavy in the feet as if you were walking down a mountainside, and press forward through the hips as if you're going against resistance and most importantly that when a foot is placed on the ground it's like it's stuck in thick mud.

In our bagua there is a saying "The quickest way to develop a sickness is to mimic the behavior of the sick." Only sickly people shuffle, slide, and drag their feet across the ground, misconstrue the meaning of 'tangnibu' to mean sliding the feet across the ground 'at one's own risk'.

On application it all depends on the situation one very basic concept is that if you are in close and attacking the legs as well as attacking with the arms then if you step behind the opponent's knee you use heel-to-toe but if you step in front of the opponent's knee you use toe-to-heel.


.[/quote]

Thank you for that information Glenn. I only learned for a day of lion with He Jinbao. I think I've basically done all the steps you mention above except the more commonly seen sliding step(except on my own), and the wheel step, and dripping water stepping which might be more unique to your lineage. Now that I remember it...I don't recall being taught kou bu or bai bu at that seminar. From Tu Kun-Yii, I was taught both as part of the four changing postures( Kaiximen form in another lineage),at the same time as beginning to learn circle walking. If you understand and can do kou bu and bai bu, then it almost immediately translates into some of the kicking/sweeping methods as well as transition to certain kicks. That's what I love about bagua. Everything connects to something else.

[Daniel]

I would comment that the mudstep is primarily used as a training-tool to open up the connective tissue and structure in your legs and feet, and then to and fro your spine. Much goes into the mud-stepping. There´s a huge amount of material you slowly let percolate through in those techniques.

But then again, in real life, if there´s time to move, immortal stepping (heel-toe) is probably more useful. Or has been for me, anyway.

Mud-stepping comes into play more if you need to "bite" your opponent, as John comments. (kou). Leg-lock, throw, attack through controlling your opponents spine through your legs, etc.

Mud-stepping as a training-technique is a better package to learn how to shift and bounce your center and your counter-inertia points in the feet.

Heel-toe will on the other hand be more useful once you really get into doing free change and free movement on all levels in your system.

Once the training build-up is stable, there is no thing more important than the rest. This is Bagua, the core of change. Each manifested application should be different from the last and the next. All depends on your surroundings, and what input you get.

...the input can be this... ...or this... ...but it should lead to this... ...then this... ...and then this... ...



Edited again: just for fun comparisons, here is Bapanzhang, possible pre-cursor to Bagua. http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzc4MjE0NjA=.html



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[D_Glenn]

Edited again: just for fun comparisons, here is Bapanzhang, possible pre-cursor to Bagua. http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzc4MjE0NjA=.html


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

Nope, not a pre-cursor at all. It is actually 坤卦麒麟形掌 Kun trigram 'Qilin' shape palm from baguazhang that was taught to Liu Baozhen. It uses 'squeezing horse' stance instead of normal horse, mostly 'kou bu' stepping and walking on straight lines, it actually is the 'yin' to the rest of the 'yang' bagua that is normally seen.


.

[D_Glenn]

Thank you for that information Glenn. I only learned for a day of lion with He Jinbao. I think I've basically done all the steps you mention above except the more commonly seen sliding step(except on my own), and the wheel step, and dripping water stepping which might be more unique to your lineage. Now that I remember it...I don't recall being taught kou bu or bai bu at that seminar. From Tu Kun-Yii, I was taught both as part of the four changing postures( Kaiximen form in another lineage),at the same time as beginning to learn circle walking. If you understand and can do kou bu and bai bu, then it almost immediately translates into some of the kicking/sweeping methods as well as transition to certain kicks. That's what I love about bagua. Everything connects to something else.

That is the way it was designed, you have a main stepping method that is the strategy of how the hands work with the legs but then say using the concept of 'wheel stepping' you can do all the other steps but with a rolling-over or crashing through force.


Basically expanding on what you said - 'Bai bu' (swinging step) as a primary stepping method/strategy isn't just opening the foot it's actually the idea of opening the 'kua' and kind of 'swinging' the legs at the hip like a pendulum and in order to kick with the back foot the front leg/kua needs to be open so 'bai stepping' contains the beginning of bagua's kicks.

'Kou bu' is also more about closing the kua and keeping the groin protected and containing a pulling back-in force and contains the 'kua' hip strikes. And since the lion uses mainly 'wheel stepping' the bai and kou step aren't overtly practiced. The 'bai bu' step is mainly in dragon palm while kou bu is in the qilin/unicorn palm.

[novamma]

answer is simple- from a pakua master who only practices pakua:

mud and/or snake step is used for form and leg strengthening.
If you want to practice for combat- use heel toe/natural stepping.

[maoshan]

Good topic.

I use the Mud/Snake step to train and the Lion/natural step for combat,in general.
But I have found that from time to time the Snake was useful in sparring, but all of that depends on the given situation
which you never know what that will be.

[bruce]

Good topic.

I use the Mud/Snake step to train and the Lion/natural step for combat,in general.
But I have found that from time to time the Snake was useful in sparring, but all of that depends on the given situation
which you never know what that will be.

when i had my one lesson from bt on jrq bagua he had me walk around the tree with the mud step. (it was ugly ... he had a good laugh!) it was a different thing than i was used to but was helpful to me to have another method to practice.

in the gao bagua i am learning i am taught to walk heel toe.
i find both methods useful and am glad to have both options ...

[bruce]

i guess which ever method you use it is important not to fall into the step so at anytime you can change directions

[64Palms]

My training in Ba Gua is primarily Liang Shi. I was initally taught, for the first 3 years or so of circle walking to never lift the heel - Tang Ni Bu was the be all and end all of circle walking. Then as my walking developed and general "internal" mechanisms evolved and the legs were well trained i was encouraged by my teacher to experiement with the fast and slow walk and the extended step (as a means of practicing the half-step in circlualr form) - this naturally lifted the heel and if i wanted to allow for a longer step then the toes would lift slightly. As it was explained to me - it is natural to have that slight lift but it is better to have it after the years of training not to have it. Hence the rooted ability in stepping, the muscles and so on are already developed.

As i spar i notice i lift the heel and of course, as others have mentioned, this does depend on the surface i am walking on and the directional speed needed. This is Liang Shi Ba Gua Zhang though and of course styles differ. In fact having seen some Yin styles and their more (what i consider) "natural step" i can see that one may be able to move more swiftly in a shorter training period than with others.

[shawnsegler]

Good post!

Crane stepping may have been a more archaic form of mudstepping; most principles are similar, besides the height that the legs are raised, obviously.

John also makes a good point as well - those sound quite similar to some kinds of bagua kicks.

Archaic? I don't know about that.

The crane step in our line forces you to act as if you were wading in mud rather than walking on top of it.. This trains the ubiquitous "even energy in all directions" quality the same as you get when practicing taiji slowly or like a standing posture in motion. It gets you in the habit of keeping your balance and the the straight up and down vertical line of energy through the body in sync...the body is forced to remain tight and connected throughout the whole range of motion from a high one legged stance or even the transition with nothing underneath the feet. It also trains you to switch your feet wicked fast like they do in some silat I have experience with, giving you a light and darting gait.

Like Conn was saying, it's one of those thing that gives you attributes that you can use or not use at your will once you've trained them, but not unless you've trained them.

IME of course.

Best,

S

[Fubo]

I was taught to walk mud step in Fu style bagua... it helps my judo a lot as a lot of movements, power generations, walking in judo requires you to be or land on the ball of your feet. to be able to develop power, speed and agility in that way is important to my ma.

[Daniel]

D Glenn, that was interesting. Could you explain a little about it? Yin Bagua versus Yang Bagua. I thought that was Bapanzhang in that clip (so does the hanzi in the beginning say, if I don´t misremember) and so have others who saw the clip. I´d really like to hear anything you´d like to add on it.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.