making training natural

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making training natural

Postby mixjourneyman on Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:18 am

Does anyone practice the concept of being nonchalante (sp?) or completely natural when training your forms?
For instance, just trying to create the feeling that the movement you are doing is completely natural for your body to do and trying to create a feeling of freedom in your mind to convey to your body a sense of effortlessness?
I'm just experimenting with this by taking a walk around my neighbourhood for about 20 minutes every day. The only difference is that instead of heal toe walking, I am mudwalking. I'm hoping that eventually I can get to the point where mudwalking feels like normal walking with the same spirit of effortlessness and ease.

Just thought I'd share that was well as canvas your opinions about this type of training.
I'm also interested in how to map this type of exercise on to partner work, but to be honest, I have not tried yet. :D
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Re: making training natural

Postby Dmitri on Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:28 am

IME it should happen on its own, as a "side effect" of working on 'song' and (of course) practicing it for a long time.

Never thinking about how I look -- only trying to maintain the right feeling inside.

FWIW
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Re: making training natural

Postby Chris McKinley on Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:12 am

mix,

I got news for ya....nothing will ever feel as natural as one's natural gait. Too many thousands of years of natural selection for that. Note also: mudstepping is an exercise, not a goal. Much like other material in Baguazhang, there is built-in "overlearning", whereby we as practitioners work like demons toward Platonic goals of perfection in structure, force generation, balance, relaxation, etc. This is intelligent for those that already also know how to fight, since in a real situation, Murphy always shows up and takes his cut off the top, leaving you with less of everything than you normally have in training. The more ridiculously close to perfection you practice with in training, the more you will be left with post-Murphy in a real encounter.

Mudstepping is an example of how to step with whole-body congruence. That's all. It does a fine job of it, but that's really all it's supposed to do. You're not ever meant to move that way in your everyday mundane life. Even if you got to where you mudstepped everywhere you go, you'd look like a total dork and create social ostracision for yourself, not to mention increasing your safety risk on stairways and on uneven terrain. Further, you would look anything but natural in a real encounter, most likely either tipping off your attacker that you believe you have some kind of training, or appearing to have a significant handicap and further inviting predatory behavior upon yourself as a result.

Straight up: realize what the exercise is for, and work it like hell in practice, but save it for the training hall where it belongs, man. :)
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Re: making training natural

Postby mixjourneyman on Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:28 am

Right, but if I do it as part of my training and its just in my (relatively safe) neighborhood where my neighbors all know I'm a martial arts nut, I don't really see the problem.

Besides, its fun. :D
:D
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Re: making training natural

Postby shmirsh on Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:37 am

careful though 邯鄲學步 (learning the handan walk) springs to mind ;-)
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Re: making training natural

Postby mixjourneyman on Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:43 am

shmirsh wrote:careful though 邯鄲學步 (learning the handan walk) springs to mind ;-)


Sorry, I don't know the cultural reference.
Could you elaborate? :D
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Re: making training natural

Postby shmirsh on Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:45 am

that's very odd - when i posted that comment there was a url - now it has vanished... trying again

http://www.voiceinchina.com/Tools/Fable%20stories/A_Walk_Learner_in_Handan.htm
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Re: making training natural

Postby mixjourneyman on Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:50 am

shmirsh wrote:that's very odd - when i posted that comment there was a url - now it has vanished... trying again

http://www.voiceinchina.com/Tools/Fable%20stories/A_Walk_Learner_in_Handan.htm


Fair point.

:D
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Re: making training natural

Postby GrahamB on Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:55 am

I have visions of Mix walking the neighborhood like this:



Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk,
I'm a Bagua man, no time to talk.
Bagua Dao and Judges Pen.
I've been kicked around since I was ten.
And now it's all right, it's O.K.
And you may look the other way.
We can try to understand
The Internal Arts' effect on man.

Circle like a brother
Or palm change like a mother,
You're stayin' alive, stayin' alive.

Feel the city breakin'
My Bagua Dao shakin'
And we're stayin' alive, stayin' alive.

Ah, ha, ha, ha,
Stayin' alive.
Stayin' alive.
Ah, ha, ha, ha,
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
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Re: making training natural

Postby Chris McKinley on Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:03 am

ROFL, Graham,

That is the most wincingly funny thing I've read on here in a long time.

Some of you guys may still be in denial, but I'll go first......

Hi, my name is Chris, and I'm a silly-moving, cheap chop sockey flick-practicing, Bruce Lee-wannabe kong foo uberdork."

"Hiiii, Chriiiissss!"

Now, where are the coffee and cigarettes, and who wants to be my sponsor?
Chris McKinley

 

Re: making training natural

Postby mixjourneyman on Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:07 am

Graham for the fatality! :D
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Re: making training natural

Postby Ian on Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:14 am

Dmitri,

Never thinking about how I look -- only trying to maintain the right feeling inside.


I know what you're getting at, but IMO it's very useful to think about what you look like.

Not trying to correct your practice btw... it's late and I'm drunk so whatever.

E.g. for firearms a good drill is to carry-draw-fire while moving without showing anything. Your partners inform you if you're showing too much. Same applies to any other weapon or any other empty-hand discipline.

That way you're more of a nasty surprise.
Ian

 

Re: making training natural

Postby bigphatwong on Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:03 am

Dude, you just described my entire approach to training right there. I'm a kinesthetic learner, and for me the bottom line is whether or not I can make a move or set of movements feel as natural as breathing. IMO a movement is not really yours until it makes sense to your body. That's why I'm always using terms like try it on, make it fit, etc. Once I "click" into the posture, no amount of external checking or measuring is needed anymore. It's like a tugboat pulling a tanker...once you're outside the breakwater you don't need them anymore and can steam full speed ahead.

I walk everywhere too (no car) and find myself doing a lot of the same things you described...letting the intention march a couple of steps ahead and "pull" the body into spontaneous action. I could be washing my unmentionables, or in the kitchen waiting for my noodles to boil and all of a sudden go into my standing practice. Even though I haven't had a teacher in years, the most valuable thing he instilled in me was how to learn CMA. So now the world is my dojo like that. It's called "tzu ran" or "naturalness".

Good thread! :)
NOBODY gets near Yung when Tanaka's around. That's for shit sure.
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Re: making training natural

Postby Dmitri on Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:40 pm

Ian wrote:E.g. for firearms a good drill is to carry-draw-fire while moving without showing anything. Your partners inform you if you're showing too much. Same applies to any other weapon or any other empty-hand discipline.

That way you're more of a nasty surprise.

Sure. The original question specifically stated "when training your forms", so I took that literally.

When you practice engagement stuff, that's a different story, those things do matter a lot, even (and especially) "micro-movement" that precedes an offensive (or defensive) action.
Different stuff altogether.
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Re: making training natural

Postby mixjourneyman on Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:52 pm

bigphatwong wrote:Dude, you just described my entire approach to training right there. I'm a kinesthetic learner, and for me the bottom line is whether or not I can make a move or set of movements feel as natural as breathing. IMO a movement is not really yours until it makes sense to your body. That's why I'm always using terms like try it on, make it fit, etc. Once I "click" into the posture, no amount of external checking or measuring is needed anymore. It's like a tugboat pulling a tanker...once you're outside the breakwater you don't need them anymore and can steam full speed ahead.

I walk everywhere too (no car) and find myself doing a lot of the same things you described...letting the intention march a couple of steps ahead and "pull" the body into spontaneous action. I could be washing my unmentionables, or in the kitchen waiting for my noodles to boil and all of a sudden go into my standing practice. Even though I haven't had a teacher in years, the most valuable thing he instilled in me was how to learn CMA. So now the world is my dojo like that. It's called "tzu ran" or "naturalness".

Good thread! :)


Glad someone has a similar experience and idea. I was starting to feel like the cheese who stands alone (though I guess in general I always feel that due to the whole hello kitty thing, but hey!).
One thing that I heard a very skilled teacher say is that you should try to imagine that you are doing the movement perfectly and that the movement feels perfect to you. I guess its so that you can really make it your's. :D
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