Sabre/Dao fencing

[jaime_g]

I want share some thoughts about this weapon, one of the last introduced in spanish Destreza. It,s more complicated than it seems to differenciate saber fencing from sword. Some sabres are straight, or are double edged, or use a lots of thrusts. When a style contains as much sword as saber and uses a general common theory, it is interesting to search for the difference in practise and I,d like to listen the oppinion of both sword and oriental saber practisers.

In our style, it is pointed that even a weapon made for cut as sabre is, must start the combinations with a thrust. The defence made in answer to that first thrust defines new objectives. The combinations may reach up to four hits ( make bigger combinations is a risky matter). Cuts are divided on six areas on three different highs, there are four main thrust considered.Sensitivity is important on this fencing, but not as much as it is when talking about sword. There are many close combat actions but it isn't a speciality of the style. Would you like to share something about your sabre styles?

[klonk]

I've worked mainly with the English methods, Silver (whom you dislike), Rowlandson and so on, Hutton, also the common method of singlestick, and then took a look at Burton (whom I dislike). Something interesting is the fighting seems all along to have been dual tempo. That is, the parry and the riposte are distinct and separate.

In rapier, in many methods, single tempo is favored. The defense and counter-attack take place in one move not two. I'd be interested in how other methods (Spanish, Chinese or whatever people here practice) treat this question of tempo. Do you make a defense then an attack, with your saber, dao or other cutting sword, or attempt both at once?

[klonk]

Still no replies? Maybe we'd better face facts, amigo, very few people in the whole world are interested in the finer points of classical fencing, and of those few, not many are on the xingyi and IMA bulletin board.

I'd still like to hear about how you all are swinging your daos.

[lian.zou.duan.da]

Thrusting (beng), slicing, pointing (pi). I don't really swing a dao but the utility is there if you need it. Upturning the blade is very useful. Uppercutting (liao) is also very useful. Wrapping/washing the head, striking with the pommel. There are some great moves if your sabre is of an appropriate length / balance (i.e. miao dao) to gain leverage and advantage. Those are some of the methods I've learned that are easier to write about.

I have also been taught to use the first section of the blade (closest to the handle) to employ 'sticking' on methods, which is very useful, especially against a stronger opponent.

I also hit tires and trees with sticks to make sure I am using the right kind of power and learn how to withstand the shock in my hands/wrists ...

[klonk]

[...]I have also been taught to use the first section of the blade (closest to the handle) to employ 'sticking' on methods, which is very useful, especially against a stronger opponent.
[...]

That's an important principle in Western fencing--to use the rearward section of the blade defensively, rather than the forward part. It gives you much better leverage, particularly if you meet the forward part of the other fellow's blade with the rearward part of yours. Interesting indeed, that this kind of thing is also taught in Chinese swordsmanship.

[sinkpoint]

depends on the length of the weapon. Sabers can be long or short, and the curvature and blade shape makes a big difference. With a longer weapon, the advantage would be in thrusting to keep the shorter weapon away. If your style does not specialize in close combat, I'd venture to guess that your saber is relatively stright and long?

The wrapping methods in dao is mainly used to close the gap, so the dao is a lot more focused on close combat. With single edge weapons, it's all about leverage and angles.

For tempo, at first single tempo needs to be learned, i.e attack when the opponent just finished his, and is on the retreat. Then arriving at the attack at the same time as the opponent finishes his. Then it has to be changed so the change happens at half-beat, i.e when the opponent is half way into his move. From there, in theory it should be that the tempo is gone and the change happens at will. I don't know, I'm not there yet.

[lian.zou.duan.da]

Thrusting isn't the only method to keep someone with a short weapon away. If you have the much longer weapon and keep it pointed it in their face they will have a hard time closing in on you.

IME a small 'pi' method is easier than thrusting and covers slightly more area than a thrust. It can be used to enter with an inch step, when your opponent reacts you can respond accordingly and close the gap. Also it requires less commitment and allows for more changing.

I like wrapping too but it's fun when people try to 'wrap' on you with the incorrect shen fa ... just press against on their weapon and watch them fall over

[klonk]

Attacks on the sword hand, wrist and forearm are important in Western fencing, some people specialize in them. If the other man cannot use his weapon, you have won. How so in Chinese fencing?

[johnwang]

Attacks on the sword hand, wrist and forearm are important in Western fencing, some people specialize in them. If the other man cannot use his weapon, you have won. How so in Chinese fencing?

This is the major difference between the Chinese Dao and Chinese Jian. You use Dao and try to cut your opponent's body in half. You use Jian and try to cut your opponent's wrist and disarm him.

- When your opponent stab, you step back and use the tip of your sword to cut on his wrist.
- After you have built a "bridge", the tip of your sword surround your opponent waist and try to cut him. The way you train this is to touch the tip of your sword on a tree. You rotate your wrist in a big circle while the tip of your sword is still touching the tree. After this training, when your sword is not touching the tree, you can rotate your wrist in a big circle when the tip of your sword only rotate in a small circle.

[edededed]

Interesting exercise, John!

I don't quite understand what the benefit of rotating the wrist in a big circle and the sword tip in a small circle, though (maybe I didn't understand what you are saying?).