3 Second Kill and Mass Attacks

[Ian]

First Question

In my understanding, there are some very formidable fighters in the CMAs, but they are mainly at home dealing with one-on-one, empty-hand altercations.

In my opinion, if you train to deal with the reality of mass attacks (multilple, determined, armed attackers), the end result will look very different from what the majority of CMAs look like.

If you "take your training there", would you mind sharing your thoughts and experiences? I'd greatly appreciate it.

(If you don't, there's no shame in keeping quiet...)


Second Question

I remember John Wang talking a while ago about combat shuai jiao and the 3 second kill.

The thought of being slammed like John's training dummy head-first into the asphalt makes me cringe, and I already know that shaui jiao is used by professionals, so I have a lot of respect for this style's training methods and its practitioners.

However, one thing I don't understand is how shuai jiao guys deal with multiple opponents. In my mind, having to use two or more points of contact to throw someone makes you over-committed. A bad idea when three or more people are attacking you.

My question is: how does the 3 second kill work in the context of a mass attack?

Thanks in advance.

[middleway]

If you "take your training there", would you mind sharing your thoughts and experiences? I'd greatly appreciate it.

We have done alot of multiple opponent work in my classes, playing about with Ba gua stepping and other concepts. I try to do drills that cumulatively build the students awareness and movement skills. Starting with simply everyone walking around the room randomly, just turning when the meet someone up to full whole class Vs 1 person or two people or everyone vs everyone brawls.

I have an old clip somewhere of a seminar i did on MO's about 4 or 5 years ago. I will try to find it.

Ba gua is ideally designed to deal with the complexity and constant change of Multiple opponent situations. The turning, stepping, smooth body movement and 'disappearing' mindset all really work very well when trained properly and progressively.

Cheers
Chris

[Walk the Torque]

Addressing the first question.

I think my favourite exercise is all (four or more) inside the circle and everyman for himself. I admit we did not work in this format with weapons, but I found this exercise to really bring out the best in me. There is absolutly no time to do anything but be in the moment. There is no consideration of distance, no planning attacks, no testing the opponant. It really comes down to movement skills, getting the job done and moving on-fast. It is the best kind of partnered work for putting you into the mind-set of go-survive.

The times it went very wrong for me was:

Getting attached to a particular interaction- you get hit from the side
Admiring your work -you get hit from the side
Doing too much to one person(getting personally involved, if that makes sense), agian hit from the side
Freezing the feet when locked or clinched

I haven't done this kind of training for a while, but it is a real confidence booster/eye opener.

I would truly love to apply this format to a kali type arena, but alas I just don't have the time or practice partners at present.

[baguaboy]

Hey guys - it really depends on the mode of the mass attack - I've seen some demos of soft multiple attacks which i just don't like as I've trained one or twice with multiple opponents hitting at me hard! - I've not trained multiple weapons attack though ~ just not got there yet i suppose.

All of the multiple attack stuff is great movement test for you - but some people just don't appreciate the obvious - you are more than likely going to get hit and how good are you at dealing with that simple fact - can you move aesthetically when your in pain?

I can appreciate the strategy of the so called '3 sec kill' - but also worth mentioning that the example of merciless violence may get you in jail for a long time - if its judged as disproportionate...

I'm no expert but i have realised that the risks of multiple attackers over coming you is if hit and move off and turn as there is nobody there to watch your back. I saw the end of fight at the end of my street last month - defender went out of club to chase off assailant, and he did well but then he got hit in the back of the head and knocked out cold by assailants mate behind him on the stairs....

I think that disappearing middleway mentioned is a misnomer - if only!

[middleway]

yeh the aim in a MO fight / any fight ... is not necisarrily to not get hit ... cut ... stabbed ..etc .... It is to Survive! if you live ... especially in MO fights ... you did a good job!

For sure you have to know what its like to really get hit when you working with MO stuff. It is different to getting hit one on one cause most of the time you dont see the strike coming at you.... you just get the impact and have to ride it or use it. We work with people really hitting the other people... otherwise its all pretty dancing and very little of real value when the shit actually does hit the fan.

Putting knives in the opponents hands very quickly makes you realise that its not fun n games anymore ... if they are serious about cutting you, maintaining their structure and posture then it really is very hard work. Its all very well when the opponents are just 'playing' ... when they are really intent on fighting at their best ability (maybe not full speed and power .. but full focus and skill) then things get into the realm of 'trained luck' for the defender.

I think that disappearing middleway mentioned is a misnomer - if only!

poooooof!! ... whered he go! lol .. wouldnt that be a good ability!



The 3 second kill thing ... i can do better than that ... now where's my SA80 ...

cheers
Chris

[DeusTrismegistus]

Kuai Jiao theory would be best used for multiple opponents. Also there are very traditional throws that are strikes as well. When I do throw someone when we practice 2 on 1 or very occasionally 3 on 1 (I am usually the 1) I almost never grab someone or wrestle with them but I strike and immediately throw, blending the two into one movement ideally. Also it can be dificult to practice this safely as ideally in a MO scenario you would want to project whoever you throw away from you so they can't pull you down. Setting someone down so they don't get hurt in practice usually means someone else gets close enough to hit you, so you have to be very quick at moving away after the throw, there really isn't time for a follow up stomp or anything.

[Chris McKinley]

I've been through a couple multiple situations in my younger years, and I'm curious as to how many of you guys might have experience as well. IME, there are only two real possibilities with two variations each in terms of multiple situations that one is likely to face. They are:

1) A generally unruly, panicked, violent and/or riotous crowd. This is a situation in which the group has given way to mob rule such as a riot, a threat has emerged which threatens anyone in the vicinity creating a stampede, or a smaller fight has escalated to some variation of a bar brawl. This situation is distinctive in that you as the defender are not (at least initially) the focus of the violence. You are swept up in a tide of crushing, panicking, violent humans and your objective is simply to escape unharmed. It is possible that you may not need to harm anyone else in that pursuit. In fact, it may be unjustifiable depending on the circumstances. The exception may be in the variation in which you are not alone, but are charged with the protection of loved ones, minors, friends, etc.

2) A focused group of predators. This situation is usually far more dangerous in that you as the defender are the specific focus of the violence. Additionally, because the predators have prior intent to cause violence, they are likely to use far more damaging tactics and are much more likely to have weapons. If you are alone when facing this situation, your only goals are survival and safe escape. Contrary to what middleway posted, and this is nothing personal, nothing is or even can be "ideally designed to deal with the complexity and constant change of Multiple opponent situations". There is no such thing.

Immediate escape is not only of paramount importance, it may be the only hope you have of surviving the encounter at all. Further, there is a considerable likelihood that you may be required to kill or injure one or more people in the process. If you are carrying a weapon, presentation must be considered. Sometimes it is more valuable to take off running as fast as you can if you have opportunity rather than presenting a weapon, even a firearm. Other times, it will be vital that you present your weapon as soon as possible or you may not get another chance to do so. Once your weapon is presented, if you have not yet effected your safe escape, it may be possible that you will be required to kill or injure at least one of the assailants in order to both achieve the freedom necessary to run and to create an escape route.

Sticking around long enough to fight several opponents at once is dangerously stupid no matter what one's mode of training, and should only be engaged in if you are faced with the other variation of this situation in which your protective charge(s) is present. Unless you are required to remain in the vicinity in order to protect someone else, you should never, ever stick around to fight multiple opponents. Statistically, to do so is suicide or at least a guaranteed trip to the hospital in all likelihood.

Notice, I'm not talking about a bunch of good ole boys trading punches down at the local honky tonk like they do every Saturday night where the risk usually doesn't exceed a couple of loose teeth and a night in the local hoosgau. Such situations are almost always completely avoidable. I'm talking about the far more deadly predatory situations that may be unavoidable and that can occur anywhere, usually but not always in urban environments.

If you are forced to stay and protect a loved one in a multiple situation, it is imperative that you present your weapon as soon as it is clear that hostilities are unavoidable. Further, unlike the variation in which you are alone, the chance that you will be required to kill or injure one or more people goes up dramatically. In fact, depending on the configuration of the assailants, killing or seriously injuring either the alpha male or the closest assailant immediately may be the only sufficient deterrent available to you to prevent you or your charge from being killed, raped, injured, etc.

With this topic, we're a long way from the peaceful world where you have the luxury of thinking about choosing between Shuai Jiao or Baguazhang as the style of your response. The discussion in the thread so far has been a little blase and casual for the subject matter. Real multiple situations are some of the worst, most nightmarish circumstances you could ever hope to face. Keep in mind that, statistically, you will be lucky even to survive, nevermind having the luxury of a range of choices in your response. In all 50 states of the U.S., physical assault by multiple assailants constitutes in se justification for the use of lethal force in response. It's that serious.

[RobP2]

I've never been involved in a situation that had less than 3 people present - and usually considerably more! It was perhaps one of the reasons for adjusting my training in the "early days" away from this "one person attacks you at a time" mentality. My training buddies at the time were all of a similar background and experience and we recognised how things, at least where we were from, "went down".

It wasn't something adressed in class, so we made our own drills and methods. Stuff along the lines of one at a time attacks in quick succession from the group (to cut down on thinking time), working to fight your way out of a circle, using someone as a shield and similar. Fairly crude most of the time, but no-one was offering any other methods, least of all any of the classical teachers I trained with.

When I first saw the Russian approach to mass fist-fighting it was like a revelation. These guys had a range of drills for training not only the "punch up" scenario, but how to move through a crowd (almost "swimming"), moving other people through a crowd, spotting and snatching trouble makers in a crowd, surviving a crush, being evasive and so on and so on.

I'm still surprised that the question isn't adressed more in "self defence" or "combat" schools, it was always a far more likely scenario to me than a one-on-one with a bad guy and, like many other things, it seems people somehow "hope" they will know how to do the right thing.

Bagua looked like the closest in CMA to dealing with the problem, but I don't see it so much in the more "fixed step" styles.



My short answer for survival in that situation is to stay calm, stay moving, stay upright, make a note of exit points in crowds, be aware of the changing moods of a crowd and if you don't have to be there, don't! If you can't get out get your back to a corner and use anything you can. If you have to go to the floor, don't go foetal, but pull someone down on top of you and use them for cover as much as you can. But most of all - keep moving

[Chris McKinley]

RobP,

I have to say that, over the years, probably the most impressive thing from what little I've seen of Systema is the fact that they at least address this facet of combat, and that they do so in some interesting ways. The "swimming" you mention is in line with my experience of dense crowds as well, and the Swimming Dragon exercises of Baguazhang as well as some of the intercepting skills of Taijiquan and Aikido would be of great benefit here. Heck, for that matter, so would experience surfing in turbulent waters like Hawaii, since there's often a three-dimensional component to such crowds. It's very easy to lose your footing or be forced off your feet or even to wind up upside down, and the ability to stay calm in the face of that is something surfers deal with all the time.

Your bringing up how commonly it can occur points yet again to the inadequate nature of almost all traditional martial arts training, regardless of style. They just don't traffic in reality most of the time. Even a simple 2-on-1 can occur with frequency in certain social venues like young, trendy clubs, and one can be drawn into the fray involuntarily, so at least a conceptual familiarity with multiples is a very good training idea. It's certainly a far cry from the groaningly common battle of the san ti mannequins we see paraded out as "applications" in neijia arts practice.

[johnwang]

how shuai jiao guys deal with multiple opponents.

- One time my teacher had to fight a group of bus drivers (more than 20) in Shanghai bus station. He got hold a chair and he stayed under the stair step and knock down each one came down that stair after him. The fight started as this. My teacher got into argument with the bus driver. The bus driver said, "Do you dare to come with me?" My teacher said, "Why not". What my teacher didn't know was there were many bus drivers waiting for him.

- Another time my teacher had to fight against 8 guys in a theater office. He used his elbow to put everybody on the ground.

In both fights, he didn't use any of his throwing skill. IMO, nothing can be more important than to have good knock down power and be able to take care of your opponent ASAP.

[Robert Young]

In my understanding, there are some very formidable fighters in the CMAs, but they are mainly at home dealing with one-on-one, empty-hand altercations.

CMA always has multiple opponents in mind. It is not a sport like we see today. From the materials(forms), There are several 2 man, 3 man empty hand forms and weapons forms. Even in one man forms (empty hand or weapon), many moves have shown to deal with 2 or 3 person attacks.

My teacher had fought with multiple people (real street fights) several times in his life. We have been taught to deal with multiple attacks from day one. So, CMA is NOT a one-to-one empty-hand. I guess it all depends on who you learn CMA from.

[Chris McKinley]

Robert,

Saying that there is material in CMA which can be used for dealing with more than one person at a time is nowhere near the same as actually training it that way on a regular or semi-regular basis. Not picking on CMA in fact, but traditional martial arts classes in this country, regardless of style or teacher, are almost exclusively dealing in 1-on-1 training. Also, simply having material in this or that form means nothing at all. It is again only that which is actually trained that a given practitioner actually has access to in a real fight. There could be thousands of 'multiple opponent only' forms in a given style. If the practitioners don't put the time in training the application, not the form, of the material, it is useless to them. Simply studying a form doesn't render any combat ability of any kind whatsoever.

Sorry to be tough about it, and there's no personal offense meant, but that's the truth of it and from your post it wasn't clear as to whether you worked actual application under realistic conditions in training against multiples "from day one". Also, it seems possible that you might believe that a given style might have sufficiently covered the concept of fighting multiple opponents merely by the fact of containing material intended for such use within a choreographed form, or even by having the practitioners practice that form. If so, nothing could be further from the truth, regardless of what a given teacher might have done in his or her personal history.

[lazyboxer]

If you are forced to stay and protect a loved one in a multiple situation, it is imperative that you present your weapon as soon as it is clear that hostilities are unavoidable. Further, unlike the variation in which you are alone, the chance that you will be required to kill or injure one or more people goes up dramatically. In fact, depending on the configuration of the assailants, killing or seriously injuring either the alpha male or the closest assailant immediately may be the only sufficient deterrent available to you to prevent you or your charge from being killed, raped, injured, etc.

This is a key point, one which martial arts with a defensive mindset such as (modern) taji find hard to comprehend. In life-and -death encounters with superior forces where escape is not an option, one must take the battle to the enemy and damage him where he is strongest. This is sometimes enough to make the footsoldiers lose heart long enough to effect an escape.

[Robert Young]

Robert,

Not picking on CMA in fact, but traditional martial arts classes in this country, regardless of style or teacher, are almost exclusively dealing in 1-on-1 training.

I would assume this is true, but this situation does not represent CMA as a whole.

Sorry to be tough about it, and there's no personal offense meant, but that's the truth of it and from your post it wasn't clear as to whether you worked actual application under realistic conditions in training against multiples "from day one". Also, it seems possible that you might believe that a given style might have sufficiently covered the concept of fighting multiple opponents merely by the fact of containing material intended for such use within a choreographed form, or even by having the practitioners practice that form. If so, nothing could be further from the truth, regardless of what a given teacher might have done in his or her personal history.

From what I know, most of the CMA systems deal with multiples. It is the mind set we have by default. It may not be the case here, but it is the case where I grew up. Teacher actually more important than the system in my view. Even inside the same system, my LF brothers will have differernt views about the forms we all practice, and we will have different focus or even differernt training methods on the same form.

We were encourage to do free fight "from day one", even we have no idea how to fight. My teacher always says "Si xiong di, Jiang mian san zhao". It means when we ran into our own LF brothers, ready to fight 3 rounds. That was how my teacher was taught by my LF GM Han.

[Chanchu]

CLF and Ba Gwa would have the good for this IMO

My CLF teacher is very good controlling and destroying mass attacks via foot work patterns- "Jao Ma' like on plum flower stakes, he can set mass attackers up like cue balls- his idea is "only so many can get to you at one time- they block each other out- so I will help them." Also uses reactions and distractions- like sting one the others have to watch. You would have to see it i guess but in IMO CLF's work on mass attack defense is first rate ( Not mine however alas mine is quite low rate)

Ba Gwa is good too at defending mass attack- old drill is have one guy try to evade and attack people (mass attack) in one room.