Yang Lu Chan / Wu Yu Xiang

[Heffalump]

Qing dynasty China; one man is an illiterate peasant originally sold to the Chen family to work as a servant, the other is a scholar holding high government office, with a passion for martial arts. Yang Lu Chan returns to his hometown in Yongnian, teaches Wu Yu Xiang the small frame art he learnt in Chen village and painstakingly dictates all the theory he has remembered, he travels round China beating off all challengers and then (as an illiterate Han martial artist belonging to the lowest social class), is given employment in the Emperor's household teaching the Manchu emperor's guards a large frame art with no written theory. One man and his successors leave a body of writing on taiji so influential that all styles claim this as "the taiji classics" and the other leaves nothing other than a verbal transmission to his students and immediate family members. In one form or another I believe this represents the popular understanding of how the Chen/Yang/Wu(Hao) arts originally interlinked. Even though the Chinese love an underdog, its a bit of a stretch isnt it?!

Consider another scenario; Wu Yu Xiang's family practise martial arts and Yang Lu Chan is a bonded servant in their household. Wu Yu Xiang and his brothers are passionate about their martial arts study and wish to further their knowledge of internal boxing. They send Yang Lu Chan to Chen Village to learn what he can. Yang returns after a while and shows Wu Yu Xiang what he has learnt. Not satisfied, Wu Yu Xiang sends him back to find out more. After some years Yang again returns and demonstrates what he has learnt. This time Wu Yu Xiang's interest is piqued. He sets out to travel to Chen village and on the way there he meets Chen Qing Ping with whom he studies for a while before returning to Yongnian to study further with his brothers and set down in writing what he has learnt. As thanks for the part he has played in the Wu brother's study, the peasant servant Yang is released from bondage and Wu Yu Xiang uses his influence at court to gain an introduction to the Emperors household for Yang, who is duly granted employment teaching the guards on account of his high level of skill.

This second version is the one related to me by a Wu(Hao) stylist and seems to make much more sense. I just havent seen anything in writing to confirm this, even Jou Tsung Hwa, who was unaffiliated to any one style and spoke a lot of good about Hao style subscribed to the first version. Any scholars out there got a different opinion on this?

[charles]

Just go practice.

[Heffalump]

Good advice Charles, but this is what I think about when my legs are too sore to practise!

[mixjourneyman]

, he travels round China beating off all challengers

His arms must have been sore after that....

[charles]

May I respectfully suggest you think about something a little more productive to obtaining skill in the art you practice? Surely, there must be some aspect of the practice of the art that you have not perfected and to which you can apply your critical reasoning skills.

Fantasizing about what may or may not have happened several hundred years ago doesn't do anything for anyone since none of it can be proven or disproven.

[mixjourneyman]

May I respectfully suggest you think about something a little more productive to obtaining skill in the art you practice? Surely, there must be some aspect of the practice of the art that you have not perfected and to which you can apply your critical reasoning skills.

Fantasizing about what may or may not have happened several hundred years ago doesn't do anything for anyone since none of it can be proven or disproven.

As a history major I take some umbrage with that statement.
Though I would say the same thing you did except with one caveat: if you want to prove or disprove something (which for historical matters is exceedingly difficult) you have to do real research and actually dig deeply into the material that you are researching. For this one (Yang LC etc) I suspect you will have to speak Chinese, be able to read classical texts and have some really good luck. Without actually looking into primary documents (of which I imagine there are very few for this particular study) you are simply speculating and doing some very high level navel gazing.

[bailewen]

For what it's worth, I have always found the "Yang the illiterate" title more than a little implausible. Literacy, even in old China, has always been better than most people give them credit for.

[chicagoTaiJi]

one does not become a good martial artist by 'remembering' what others taught you, but rather by having innate abilities that you 'own' and can prove. why is there this constant insinuation that the chen family had some magic top martial art and Yang Lu Chan simply "learned a little bit of it" ? Seems to me Yang Lu Chan is the one who became famous for a reason - HE had something - not Chen village.

[Daniel]

Various systems and their amount of knowledge and skill will take a large part in increasing a student´s natural ability.

As far as I remember - but I hope someone who is more precise in their knowledge of Taiji history will step in on this thread - Yang Luchan trained nine years first, then another nine after that. If he had great innate skill and the Chen training was something simple, he would not have needed that long before he left.

Hasn´t the official Yang-family line always been that Luchan was a spy out to learn the secrets? It was when I interviewed Yang Zhenduo, anyway. Whereas other stories talk about him being sold as a slave not because of being one by birth, but to settle some kind of debt he had gotten into.

Just theory and creative thinking around a style will not help you much in learning it. But doing some, and seeing things more clearly of how the style was created or meant to work, will deepen your understanding of the art, and often open doors in the training that you haven´t considered before.

Also, Yang Luchan did the Chen-style of that time. That was the training and those were the skills he used to become famous. I don´t know who was responsible for the slow changes of making it "Yang" style, he, during his lifetime, or his children and then grand-children.



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[GrahamB]

Just go practice.

HA HA HAHA !

Best post all week!

[GrahamB]

This second version is the one related to me by a Wu(Hao) stylist and seems to make much more sense. I just havent seen anything in writing to confirm this, even Jou Tsung Hwa, who was unaffiliated to any one style and spoke a lot of good about Hao style subscribed to the first version. Any scholars out there got a different opinion on this?

You should read Douglas Wiles' Lost Tai Chi Classics of the Ching Dynasty. It's properly researched and I think would probably support your theory. It certainly looks into the relation ship of Yang to the Wu brothers and comes up with some interesting questions.

[chicagoTaiJi]

As far as I remember - but I hope someone who is more precise in their knowledge of Taiji history will step in on this thread - Yang Luchan trained nine years first, then another nine after that. If he had great innate skill and the Chen training was something simple, he would not have needed that long before he left.

i didnt imply his 'innate skill' was not developed at chen village or from a chen teacher.

i meant that a good martial artist is what he is because of his experience, not because of osmosis by coming close to a famous teacher!

You said "Yang Luchan did the Chen-style of that time" ... is it true that there was a "Chen style" anything back then? or was he simply learning martial arts in the Chen village. Remember there was no such thing as "tai ji quan" until someone came up with that term later. Chen-style what? Chen-style martial arts? Chen family or chen "style" ? ( "shi" 陳式 or "jia" 陳家 ) ?

[Bao]

Cut the crap allredy. The story is all wrong! All wrong I say - both of them!

Now, I will give you the true story!
The truth is that Aliens came down to earth with Yang Luchan and gave him to the Chen family. The Aliens were hunted by another species because they possessed magical powers. They were all extinct now, and Yang Luchan was the last of their kind. The Aliens crashed right outside Chenjia gou and was able to make contact with the Chen family. They watched the Chen family and thought that taijiquan would be good for Yang Luchan to help him explore his magical powers. Yang Luchan combined Chen taiji with his magical Alien qigong powers to create the Great Ultimate martial art, and later called his art by that name. Now, today, through Yang taiji practice, you take part of ancient alien secrets which might be more than one million years old...

So there you are - the truth and nothing but the truth!

[Daniel]

...oh god, Bao, you swore the oath too...we´re not supposed to tell them...


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Ba-men]

Its fairly well known that Yang Lu Chan was the third son of a prosperous farmer. He studied a martial art before going to the Chen village. Poor illiterate farmers couldn't afford the time to practice a martial art, let alone what ever fee was agreed upon. Being a third son meant that he was not going to inherit much land when his father died. This would have explained his moving away. He probably wasn't as illiterate as some would think, having time to practice a martial art, then its safe to assume he probably was taught some degree of reading and writing also....

Where there is smoke there fire...

Either he arrived in the heavily populated city of Beijing without a reputation as a skilled fighter and gained it.... or had the reputation before and managed to keep it.... BOTH...say a lot. (think about all the martial artist looking to make a name for themselves in this time period and think about how large a city like Beijing was/is)

Teaching Banner men at the palace... If the general history is true, then this too is a testament of his prowess as a warrior. Banner men as most of you know... were elite soldiers of the Qing. Some banners (different colors denoted the different division..I think there was 8 banners in all (????) were charged with guarding the Emperor. How quick do u think someone with no prowess would get exposed in front of experienced soldiers? I've seen no credible sources that could prove that these Banner men were ceremonial in nature. Some sources out side the Yang's have claimed as much. Or some detractors claim that the post was ceremonial, having achieved fame from previous exploits, Yang Lu Chan was given the honorary job/title (but doesn't this say that at sometime he had serious prowess???)

More often than not the obvious is the truth. Wu Yu Xiang having heard Yang lu Chan (and his son Ban hou) had prowess, sought out the Yangs for instruction. Which is basically the given history of both Taijiquan houses...