Do you need to learn weapons to fully understand Chen TJQ?

[kal]

I have seen it asserted a few times that Chen TJQ is incomplete without the weapons training. I also read something interesting recently, which was a claim that Chen TJQ is based upon the movements of the kwan-dao, and that it is important to learn this weapon in particular, otherwise one is not really doing the art properly.

Is this true, or just an exaggeration?

(When I read that, I was immediately reminded of what the last soke of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu said, which was that DR was based on sword movements, and that you are not doing DR properly unless you learn the sword too.)

[Daniel]

I would guess that a more crucial thing to do to understand Chenjia is to do it in some version of armour, as it most likely was during the fighting at that time. It changes your movements a whole lot, and you understand more of how the chanzijing of Chenjia had to be used.



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[charles]

I have seen it asserted a few times that Chen TJQ is incomplete without the weapons training.

In this context, the word "incomplete" would need to be better defined.

Regardless, without question, there are skills that are honed/more fully developed by the use of heavy, long weapons practice within Chen Taijiquan. These include the spear, da dao (kwan dao) and da gun (big pole). There are numerous movements in the choreography of the dao form that are very similar to the da dao form. Similarly, there are numerous similar movements between the spear and da dao form, and of course between the spear and the da gun.

I also read something interesting recently, which was a claim that Chen TJQ is based upon the movements of the kwan-dao, and that it is important to learn this weapon in particular, otherwise one is not really doing the art properly.

Don't believe everything you read, especially if you're reading about Taijiquan.

[mixjourneyman]

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Cheng Zhaokui did not have much in the way of weapons training and was most famous because of their excellent empty hand skills

[Royal Dragon]

Based on my Chinese martial arts studies, I have come to the conclusion that most Chinese styles are based on weapons work first. The empty hand stuff was derived from the weapons movements so one did not need to learn two systems.

This means to truly get the art, one needs to learn both emptyhand and weapons at the same time, maybe even the weapons first. Once you gte that, the empty hand will be easy because you already know it.

Also, learning to fight with weapons, especially bladed ones, forces you to have a much higher level of precision. Mistakes are more costly and all that.

[johnwang]

A. Master! Have I finished my 10 years training yet?
B: No! You will need to finish your Kwan Dao traing.
A: How long will that take?
B: The 6 roads Kwan Dao forms will take you another 3 years.
A: Do I really need that training?
B: You don't but I do.
A: What do you mean?
B: I need your money.

[mixjourneyman]

Meant Chen fwiw.
I had just heard than Chen Zhaokui did not know very many weapons routines and by their I meant his (I had originally written Fake and Zhaokui, but then I couldn't remember if it was actually Fake who didn't have weapons training).
I heard this all a long time ago but basically the story I was told was that Chen Zhaokui didn't really do weapons and that certain students of his had to learn their Chen style weapons routines from other sources.
I'm not holding it up as the crucible or anything, its just something I heard once.

[mixjourneyman]

Even though the poster somehow managed to erase his post, I'll leave up my response (above) which is in reply to a post asking what I meant when I said CZK didn't do very much weapons training.
Hope that it serves some purpose.

[Daniel]

Yes...it´s always strange when posts mysteriously vanish, isn´t it?

But hey, the Truth is Out There. Or so it´s rumoured.

Comment on the topic: no. Don´t think so. See previous post on the armour thing. That´s probably more interesting, if you really want to go in depth in Chen.



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[shawnsegler]

In GBZ's bagua training the four main weapons (Dao, Jian, staff and spear) each teaches you to interact and be able to generate and manipulate it's own specific energies. In my personal experience learning some spear really helped me see a little more deeply as to how we generate energy, the mechanics are much tighter and you're forced to do things "more correctly" by learning the weapons.

Teaching 30 different weapons as though they each had something specific and profound that couldn't be learned outside of that weapon is ridiculous, but as an ancillary practice, the amount of proprioceptive energetic experience you get out of it is there in proportion to the amount of work you put into it, but it's all real good training. I think the idea that not learning a weapon just because you won't have one lying around is silly. There's a lot of good training in weapons.

Best,

S

[BruceP]

uh huh

We spar with shovels, spades, forks, rakes and hammers. Really brings out the natural wave response when you're trying to keep the other guy from chipping your melon.

[charles]

unwarranted petty attack removed. Appologies to Mix.

[Daniel]

Given that your teacher is from this lineage of Chen family TJQ, you should know better than this, particularly given that history is your chosen field of study. Repeating "just something I heard once" spreads misinformation in a field already overwhelmed with misinformation. Please don't contribute to it. If you don't know something with reasonable certainty, do everyone a favor and please don't interject with it. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but please use some restraint so that you share good, solid information about things you know well. Readers are always delighted when you do that.

Agreed about the solid information part. What lineage/teachers do you have, Charles? There´s nothing listed in your bio on that. Thanks.



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Nick C]

While I study Wu Style Tai Chi so cant speak for Chen style specifically, I would answer with the following:
Are weapon forms necessary to understand TJQ (hand forms/ applications)? No
Can weapon forms help / deepen your understanding and improve your TJQ in all areas? Most definately yes.
Are weapon forms part of the total TJQ system? Yes

From there it is up to the individual student if they wish to continue with weapons or not.

[mixjourneyman]

Charles, I just posted what I heard. Its no biggie.
I think you have a lot invested in this, while I don't.
Again, no biggie.