Do you need to learn weapons to fully understand Chen TJQ?

[Bao]

So perhaps a better question should be: can you really say you do the complete TJQ without knowing the above weapons?

We can never understand taijiquan as they did in the old days. We live in another time and culture - in a world much much different the old. So what is complete understanding? Everyone sees only parts of a whole. Together we can complete each other, understand more from each other, but "style" as an absolute complete shape, is abstract. Striving for a full understanding of a complete art is something imaginary, a fantasy which will never be reality.

If the statement above is true, then is it better to strive for something gone in the past, then to strive to adjust or even change the knowledge so it will suite your own personality and the world you live in? Should style practice be equal to sentimental nostalgia, or a way to live and act in the 'now'.

With that said, is weapon important? Yes and no. Weapon practice will change your experience of balance and leverage. If you think of weapons as tools, then I believe they can teach you many important things. But are they important for "complete practice" or better understanding of "taijiquan"? I believe they are not very important in this matter. They can be helpful, but not much more than that.

[johnwang]

A: You need to learn Guan Dao in order to complete your Taiji training.
B: Dear master! Why?
A: When you can swing that 60 lbs Guan Dao and still remain "Sung" then you can say that you truly understand what "Sung" means.

[Formosa Neijia]

Fair point.

But then again, the weapons ARE still a part of Chen TJQ today. It's not just the evolutionary thing. Sword, sabre, staff, spear and kwandao ARE being taught by many teachers. So perhaps a better question should be: can you really say you do the complete TJQ without knowing the above weapons?

ARE they really a part of the Chen knowledge? When Chen stylists don't even know what shape of dao was historically used and can't tell the difference in usage between the different daos, then I would say it's a moot point that this type of knowledge is "vital."

I rhetorically ask that question because I had asked earlier on the Chen forum what shape dao was historically used and you could have heard a pin drop. No one knew. "Wushu dao" was apparently the answer.

Same goes when Chen people insist on doing fajing with the straight sword pointed up so that the ...ahem..."sword" will flex in the middle of the blade. That's doable with a historically inaccurate wushu blade but nothing resembling the real thing, which BTW I've never seen discussed in Chen style.

Dave C.

[Andy_S]

Some points:

RE: Weaspon and EH
This theory that you need to know the the kwandao to really comprehend Chen Taiji is, I beleive, a theory of Ron Panunto who will, I am sure, be along shortly. IIRC, his reasoning is that Chen Wanting was particularly famous for his skill with that weapon. OTOH, it is highly unlikely that the MA that we do today known as Chen Taijiquan is identical, or even roughly similar, to what Chen Wanting did, given that we know so many old forms were merged into the current ones. That having been said, a couple of moves in the kwandao form (such us jumping up, turning around in the air and striking down) are included in the EH forms - to no particularly common-sensible application that I am aware of. Please correct me if wrong.

RE: Chen Zhaokui
Chen Zhaokui learned his empty hand from his father, and his weapons from Chen Zhaopei quite late in life, IIRC. The fact that he had very advanced empty hand skills before he even learned a single weapons should tell you a thing or two. Moreover, he picked up (again, IIRC) the weapons in a relatively short time - perhaps on just a couple of short visits to Chen ZP - based on his existing skill base.

RE: Chen Weapons and Transferrance to EH Skills
I practice the Chen sword, sabre, spear and pole forms. Frankly, the only one that I think really improves my EH skills is the pole - and I see that more as a power building exercise than a form (ie form as a collection of tactical techniques). OTOH, it is the form I like practicing the least. Go figure.

Dave:

I am not sure that relatively minor design chances in kuandaos made a huge difference in the technqiues used. It is not a particularly subtle weapon, in case you had not noticed...

Good point re the sword, though. I have never known the reason for fajing move with the point upward. But then, when it comes to CMA weapon forms, I tend to blindly do what I am told...

[ors]

Fair point.

But then again, the weapons ARE still a part of Chen TJQ today. It's not just the evolutionary thing. Sword, sabre, staff, spear and kwandao ARE being taught by many teachers. So perhaps a better question should be: can you really say you do the complete TJQ without knowing the above weapons?

ARE they really a part of the Chen knowledge? When Chen stylists don't even know what shape of dao was historically used and can't tell the difference in usage between the different daos, then I would say it's a moot point that this type of knowledge is "vital."

I rhetorically ask that question because I had asked earlier on the Chen forum what shape dao was historically used and you could have heard a pin drop. No one knew. "Wushu dao" was apparently the answer.

Same goes when Chen people insist on doing fajing with the straight sword pointed up so that the ...ahem..."sword" will flex in the middle of the blade. That's doable with a historically inaccurate wushu blade but nothing resembling the real thing, which BTW I've never seen discussed in Chen style.

Dave C.

Dave!

I don't want to criticize your logic, but to ask some more or less experienced practioner on a forum in these kind of questions seems a little bit...ehm.. strange... for me...

Sorry!

The fajing movement with the sword pointing up is a part of our forms as well in our lineage. If you have proper "dou fa li", you can shake the swordblade. Flex it????

Örs

[ors]

A: You need to learn Guan Dao in order to complete your Taiji training.
B: Dear master! Why?
A: When you can swing that 60 lbs Guan Dao and still remain "Sung" then you can say that you truly understand what "Sung" means.

Wang laoshi!

That is the point!

By the way is there any possibility to understand shuai jiao without proper long pole training...

Örs

[Formosa Neijia]

The fajing movement with the sword pointing up is a part of our forms as well in our lineage. If you have proper "dou fa li", you can shake the swordblade. Flex it????

Örs

As for shaking/flexing the sword blade in that position, that can only be done with a wushu blade. A real, solid blade won't shake.

Dave C.

[Formosa Neijia]

Dave:

I am not sure that relatively minor design chances in kuandaos made a huge difference in the technqiues used. It is not a particularly subtle weapon, in case you had not noticed...

Good point re the sword, though. I have never known the reason for fajing move with the point upward. But then, when it comes to CMA weapon forms, I tend to blindly do what I am told...

Andy,
It wasn't the kwandao that was in question but the broadsword (dao). There are many different types and the techniques are slightly different.

Your last point makes sense. Perhaps that's best.

Dave C.