Do you need to learn weapons to fully understand Chen TJQ?

[mixjourneyman]

Charles, I just posted what I heard. Its no biggie.
I think you have a lot invested in this, while I don't.
Again, no biggie.

Taiji is not really important enough in the grand scheme of things to get really worked up about some comments made on a message board.

Actually let me take this opportunity to expand on this to a small degree since intellectual integrity or my lack thereof was brought into this:
I was told by an anonymous secondary source who studied with various Chen style Taiji exponents from CZK's lineage that he (CZK) was "much more famous for his empty hand skills than weapons" and that he did not have extensive weapons knowledge. Now whether this is true or untrue is something that I suppose various people will continue to argue and vociferate about for a long time since different camps have different opinions about the truth behind CZK's weapons knowledge. Now you presented information that I had previously not heard, but please don't expect me to write my casual posts on a message board like an academic paper, when this is not an academic setting and people are free to post their opinions (informed or otherwise) and generally have a bit of chit chat about something that interests them.
In my opinion the tone of both of your posts (the erased one and the one that got posted) was unduly harsh when all you needed to do was present me with information to the contrary of what I posted. I will happily concede that I could be wrong about my point if you are willing to discuss this rationally as opposed to throwing a fit and casting personal aspersions.

Yeesh!

[mixjourneyman]

"I just found the post on rumsoakedfist. about chen weapon.
in order to help you know more, I would like to write something to you.
1, the double sword form was created by Chen Zhaopi(about 1930s in nanjing), not chen Zhaokui.
2, The 4 tiger or whatever in chen village, learned that routine from Chen zhaopi, not chen zhaokui.
3, chen zhaokui was famous of his empty hand form, not weapon at all. he said: "I do not need to learn weapon, It is enough for me to use my hand... " my uncle told me this in person, since Chen zhaokui told him in person. so my uncle had to learn weapon from other people. he learned sword from Chen yuxia, the daughter of chen fa'ke...
there are many stories in martial art community.
yanghai"

Just fyi.

[edededed]

I dunno about Chen taiji, but in baguazhang a lot of the weapons help understanding of empty-hand (sword, saber, spear, etc.); then again, a lot of other weapons are there mainly simply to use that weapon (there may be some fringe benefits anyway).

Still, Liu Fengchun was one of the best of his generation, and it was said that he learned no weapons at all (there was a story where, he would lose if he was holding a weapon, but barehanded he could defeat his exponent anyway).

[charles]

I was told by an anonymous secondary source who studied with various Chen style Taiji exponents from CZK's lineage that he (CZK) was "much more famous for his empty hand skills than weapons" and that he did not have extensive weapons knowledge.

I checked my notes from several sources, your quote from Yang Hai and from Cheng Jincai's writing. I stand corrected, you and your source are right.

In my opinion the tone of both of your posts (the erased one and the one that got posted) was unduly harsh when all you needed to do was present me with information to the contrary of what I posted. I will happily concede that I could be wrong about my point if you are willing to discuss this rationally as opposed to throwing a fit and casting personal aspersions.

I am wrong. My appologies for the tone, the fit and the aspersions. Carry on, please. I'll go back to being quiet.

[charles]

Agreed about the solid information part. What lineage/teachers do you have, Charles? There´s nothing listed in your bio on that. Thanks.

I've studied Chen TJQ with Li Lairen for about 10 years. (His main TJQ teachers were Zhu Tiancai and Feng Zhiqiang.) I Studied Chen with a few teachers before that, and with a variety of teachers in seminars over the years. Studied Yang style before that for 5 years with a number of teachers of no consequence.

[Formosa Neijia]

I have seen it asserted a few times that Chen TJQ is incomplete without the weapons training.
(When I read that, I was immediately reminded of what the last soke of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu said, which was that DR was based on sword movements, and that you are not doing DR properly unless you learn the sword too.)

As has already been mentioned, "incomplete" needs to be defined. Not knowing the full evolution of something because you didn't train everything that contributed to that style doesn't necessarily denote incomplete knowledge. I could just as easily say that you don't truly understand Chen style unless you've done the tongbeiquan and other styles that Chen style came from. That wouldn't be really correct either.

Dave C.

[Daniel]

Agreed about the solid information part. What lineage/teachers do you have, Charles? There´s nothing listed in your bio on that. Thanks.

I've studied Chen TJQ with Li Lairen for about 10 years. (His main TJQ teachers were Zhu Tiancai and Feng Zhiqiang.) I Studied Chen with a few teachers before that, and with a variety of teachers in seminars over the years. Studied Yang style before that for 5 years with a number of teachers of no consequence.

Good, Charles. Appreciated. You´re showing good decorum as well.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[mixjourneyman]

Charles, thanks.
I just wanted to say that I know our styles of communication are very different and I know we frustrate each other sometimes. Sorry about that.

[Bob]

Someone with a little more historical authority might be able to answer this more accurately but my read is that, historically, open-hand forms were always secondary. If you worked for a security company say 1500s, 1600s, 1700s, you would always employ a weapon. One theory is that open hand forms evolved from weapons training. Weapons training was often a lot of single posture training, both static and moving. Weren't weapons such as the bow and arrow also part of the older Chen Village usage?

Also, there was that historical clean up of the Chen Village area [too lazy to look it up! LOL]. I am sure that the cleanup [1500s?] employed weapons.

If the accounts of Chen Fake are accurate, his big pole exercises/training, according to the Jinan people accounts, was employed all the way up until his death. That training is partially the basis for staff and spear training and would help in overall hand training.

I don't know if you can really separate weapons training from open hand forms training if your goal is to reach a high level of mastery. When you take a system like, baji, yeah, the first 6 months or so may consist primarily of stance work and single movng postures but it won't belong before you are doing, in conjunction with open hand training, da qiang [big spear training the analog to the big pole training in the Chen's system, more or less].

[mixjourneyman]

" and maybe even evasive---not wanting to be pestered about teaching weapon training to students who may not have impressed him. .

Now that my friends is how you open a can of worms....

[Bob]

My intention is not to open a can of worms regarding CZK---I know little about that---but to simply offer some alternative paths for consideration.

The only time I open a can of worms is if I am going fishin and I didn't buy my license this year---so no harm intended to those in the CZK line. LOL

[mixjourneyman]

I would just like you to take note that by saying that you indirectly disrespected both my teacher's uncle and Ma Hong.
Both of whom had or have excellent taiji.

[Bob]

No fishin today! LOL

[kal]

As has already been mentioned, "incomplete" needs to be defined. Not knowing the full evolution of something because you didn't train everything that contributed to that style doesn't necessarily denote incomplete knowledge. I could just as easily say that you don't truly understand Chen style unless you've done the tongbeiquan and other styles that Chen style came from. That wouldn't be really correct either.

Dave C.

Fair point.

But then again, the weapons ARE still a part of Chen TJQ today. It's not just the evolutionary thing. Sword, sabre, staff, spear and kwandao ARE being taught by many teachers. So perhaps a better question should be: can you really say you do the complete TJQ without knowing the above weapons?

[mixjourneyman]

Bob, check your pm.

I shouldn't have brought Ma Hong's name into this.