Purpose of MA competition

[Fubo]

I was interested in something John Wang said in the "8 strikes and 8 not strikes" thread... Quote "If we are kind to our enemies then we are cruel to ourselves." It made me think of the intention or attitude one goes into a MA competition with. From my understanding a lot of people go into MA competition with different attitudes... Some go for the experience without worrying about winning or loosing, some go in with the attitude of trying their best to win while playing "clean", some go in with a kill kill type of mentality etc... I think this is one of the "colorful" and dynamic things about competition, the fact that there are many unknowns.

I am interested in what others intention is when they go into competition.

Also, would you compete for the experience even if you knew that you were fighting someone more skillful than you? (Maybe it depends on the type of competition?)

If you were clearly more skillful then your opponent, would you take it easy on them? Or would you go for the kill as it's a competition and everyone knows the stakes?

I'm asking people this because I fought a national Judo team member from some central asian country after 1 year of Judo training... I was obviously out matched, and got my ass handed to me, but all in all it was an invaluable experience and he clearly didn't go all out on me. The guy could have easily cause some serious damage to me if he wanted to, but what would he or I have gained from the experience if he had a no mercy type of mind set?

[Ian]

...
some go in with the attitude of trying their best to win while playing "clean
...
If you were clearly more skillful then your opponent, would you take it easy on them?
...

This is what I've done in the past and what I will continue to do.

It's not life or death. It's just a game, with artificial agreements, in an artificial venue, under artificial circumstances. Nothing's at stake.

And besides, it's not nice to hurt someone if you don't have to. It should be pretty clear for both parties when one side has the advantage.

Of course there should be pain involved, but if you damage someone when you don't have to, that's dickhead behaviour.

[Fubo]

I agree that there's no need to be a dickhead.

[CaliG]

We just had 5 guys go to the BJJ Pan Ams and we turned out 3 champs. We also have MT fighters and MMA fighters who do well at my gym.

Personally competition never interested me much. But seeing these guys compete has kind of changed my mind a little. If the competition comes with the expectation that one has to win at all costs to "prove themselves" I don't it's healthy, but if someone is one of the top players at their gym then it would make sense to me that they'd want to see how they do against the top players from other gyms.

After all losing gives you the opportunity to learn from your mistakes. I think if someone competes in competition or against friends with that attitude competition can be healthy.

[johnwang]

David C. K. Lin told one of his students that he should not lost even one round. So far his student hasn't lost any round yet. That's pretty serious business and not just for fun or get experience. It's not easy to have a perfect winning record.

[Fubo]

John,

I think you mentioned this a while back, and also said a student should not loose because they may never want to compete again (or something like that). If I understand what you're saying correctly it's to give the student positive re-enforcement and to give them confidence in their skill... which makes a lot of sense.

So, how do you install this mind set of never loosing in your students during training? If people are sparring then one of the two people are going to loose, and unless the teacher or seniors brings their level down to the less experienced student, then that student is going to loose a lot also. I suppose I am trying to understand from your point of view as a teacher how to train this ability or mindset to never loose out side of competition.

I know that there are some Judo and BJJ teachers that will with hold promoting a student, so even if the students has a BJJ blue belt level of skill, he will be ranked as a white belt and dominate that level, or a Judo student will be brown belt level, but will be given a lower belt so that he will undoubtedly dominate the lesser skilled...

[GrahamB]

...
some go in with the attitude of trying their best to win while playing "clean
...
If you were clearly more skillful then your opponent, would you take it easy on them?
...

This is what I've done in the past and what I will continue to do.

It's not life or death. It's just a game, with artificial agreements, in an artificial venue, under artificial circumstances. Nothing's at stake.

And besides, it's not nice to hurt someone if you don't have to. It should be pretty clear for both parties when one side has the advantage.

Of course there should be pain involved, but if you damage someone when you don't have to, that's dickhead behaviour.

Amen to that Brother. Well said.

I posted a sparring video online recently, and a lot of people were like "why wasn't there more following up after a hit is landed?" Well - because we don't want to hurt each other - you can tell when you land a good one, there's no need to follow up and hurt them when they're defenseless. I'm more interested in making sure my sparring partner is ok than trying to hurt him when he's reeling - and I'd like to think they would do the same for me.

You're right - it's just a game, so why not play nice?

[DeusTrismegistus]

When I went to the shuai jiao comp last year I had an attitude of "dominate and win" but I never thought of harming my opponent. Leg blocking is one of my favorite throws and I used it several times, I was always careful to avoid hurting their knee as I threw them.

[cerebus]

For me competition is about learning. About trying things out in a situation where someone is trying to knock me out. Sparring with friends is just that, more of an "experimental laboratory", then you go and compete and see what works when your opponent is serious about trying to put you down. It all adds up to experience and self development...

[johnwang]

So, how do you install this mind set of never loosing in your students during training?

David C. K. Lin and I use different approach on this. David likes to use "skill" as the base and I like to use "ability" as the base. If I can just tell my students that don't go to any tournament unless they can move that rock next to my drive way then they may be more serious about tournament. I had spent 3 months of my training time moving that rock from one place to another. I know the benefit from that training. It may not help my skill but it enhances my skill and give me all the confidence that I need.

[JAB]

I do not look up to someone who has not lost on some level! They have A LOT to learn! I have learned more in defeat then in victory! It sounds like Lin's student is not challenging himself! And lets be honest guys.... the level of SC in the states is pretty poor IME!

I compete to challenge myself, see how I stack up against others my level, and to push my comfortability level. Many other reasons, but that is enough for here.
Jake

[maoshan]

Peace,
When I competed I always went for the win,
But I've always invested in lose. It's through this approach I made my greatest Progress.

[Fubo]

Interesting comments. I'm interested in the different delivery systems people have as it can have different effects. The place I train gets their students to compete fairly early on (within 6 months - 1 year) and believe that it's valuable experience whether you win or loose. One guy lost a few times and lost the heart to continue competing... maybe he will later on. Another guy lost a lot for the first couple of years, but pushed on, learnt from his mistakes and became one of the toughest fighters in his category ever since. I've noticed that some people thrive on the taste of victory, or the fear of loosing.

I think loosing a certain amount can put a kind of fear into some people and loss of confidence, but if you can get over that fear you become much stronger then before.

I also believe that sometimes we learn the most when we struggle the most.

[johnwang]

I think loosing a certain amount can put a kind of fear into some people and loss of confidence, but if you can get over that fear you become much stronger then before.

I have seen people who had trained SC for many years and lose in his 1st SC tournament and spent the rest of his life training IMA and never want to mention about SC again. Sometime it's not because someone who doesn't have the talent in tournament competition but may be because that person has not prepare enough.

When I took my 1st SC team to compete in Taiwan, I told my students that in the next 6 months they need to get ride of all the fat on their body. 6 months later, I looked at them and I knew they had no chance to compete against the best of the best. When Taiwan team send back their fighter's list, my teacher was living in my house at that time, My teacher looked at that fighters list and said, "They are trying to fight against tigers". He then wanted me to tell my students that don't be too serious about winning or losing. When I looked at that list, I realized that every single fighters who were waiting for my team were all national champions in the past several years and my students just thought it might be a fun vacation in Taiwan.

This may be the problem for someone who just want to have fun, get some tournament experience, or invest in lose. Without enough preparation before the tournament, without a proper game plan, if that person lose, he may feel discourage and quit for the rest of his life.

[GrahamB]

For me competition is about learning. About trying things out in a situation where someone is trying to knock me out. Sparring with friends is just that, more of an "experimental laboratory", then you go and compete and see what works when your opponent is serious about trying to put you down. It all adds up to experience and self development...

Good point - I was talking more about sparring with friends than competition.