greatest taiji skill i've felt

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

greatest taiji skill i've felt - Pulsing

Postby escrima on Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:53 pm

64Palms wrote: Often keeping an open mind - even to the unknown and seemingly mystical can lead to infinite knowledge and understanding.


Guy's as much as I enjoy trading conceptual ideas, I would love to hear more stories about the greatest/coolest neijia/taiji skills you have felt.

Another skill that has tripped me out is pulsing. Even more surprising is seeing that only one other person has mentioned it on these boards using that term and I think they are talking about something else. Any body else have experience with this and have another name for it? Maybe it's an old thread - point me in the right direction please. I feel I may be opening myself up for attack because this is one of those woo woo things that is not explainable in the current western model of how the human body is supposed to work.

What I observed was the wrist area of Bernard "Bernie" Langan extending and contracting. What it looked like was the carpals were expanding and contracting so that the hand moved further away from the ulna and radius. Bernard would also let me feel the carpal area and then I would feel the same thing. It was kind of freaky feeling and looking. The expansion looked to be about a half inch: this was not a small subtle thing but a lot of movement.

The way it was explained to me is you relax the muscles, ligaments, and tendons around a joint and then you let the synovial fluid expand. We were told there was a natural pulse already there. It was also said that every joint could be pulsed this way. The way we developed this skill was to work with someone who had the skill. They would secure the ulna a radius with one hand, then with the other they would hold your metacarpals. Then they would gently align your wrist so it was straight and then gently pulse your wrist - basically pulling the hand away from the forearm and then bringing them back towards each other.

You would actually feel a gentle opening and closing of the carpal area. Part of the technique of pulsing another person was that you should not pull it open so far that you reached the maximum range of the fascia and you should not let it contract so far that you reach the tissue and carpals maximum ability to compress: the movement was kept well within the current range of motion. The skill was to do this by feel. The feeling was as if your wrist/carpal areas became this warm area that would just pulse with an expansion and contraction. It is very relaxing and feels good. This may be woo woo for some but my wrist felt like it was woshing inside.

I was told you could practice pulsing another person on any joint and that the quickest visible gains were seen at the wrist. The only other joint we would practice pulsing was the ankle area. After working with partners who worked on you then you could add awareness of pulsing joints to one's standing practice. It was not that your intentionally trying to make joint pulse and expand but that you brought awareness to the pulse and you would bring intention to having the surrounding tissue relax.

I got to the point where I could feel a sense of pulsing on my own and could do the exercise on others. I never developed the level of skill that Bernie or anyone who trained consistently for a year had. I know of three of his students who can do the same thing with the same observable range of motion. The three of them teach now also. I also understand this is supposed to be a standard skill that BKF teaches. I was told that this was another way to generate power and that it could also happen very fast instead of the slow pulsing I had observed.

Bernie did demonstrate generating fah jing in this method but to be honest it could have come from a multitude of other structural components. At the time I really didn't worry about it because as far as I was concerned until I could actually get that kind of movement, learning the martial application of such a skill was moot. Also there were times where he might demonstrate over a dozen different ways to generate his fah jing (There is a clip on youtube of BKF doing the same thing. In the full clip he talks about where he connects to the ground and the direction of his projections. At that time I might only really understand and feel 6 of them, feel 3 and not be sure of how or what was being done and the other three were the same to me: I could not feel a difference. What has me believe in the nuances is that at the beginning I might have only understood that i was being thrown - with training I developed new awareness and eventually the skill to do the same.

One thing about Bernie that I appreciated is that he was really straight forward about what it would take to develop various skills and he had students who could do it. While stuff masters do that are amazing are cool - I want to know if they have successfully passed the skill on. Do they know how to teach it so others can learn it and if I was to take on studying with them what hoops would I have to jump through to learn it.

I've met a number of people who can generate untypical heat from there hands. Only one who actual produced a sensation of cold in my body. It was extraordinary and it helped with the pain I had in my stomach. But when I asked him how he did he just laughed. So in effect it was a useless tool for me at the time (still is actually). I also do bodywork so the tips I've learned about having warm hands have been great though.
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Re: greatest taiji skill i've felt

Postby Daniel on Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:04 am

Hey Escrima. You´ve got a good tone there in your posts. Cool.

For those of you eagerly awaiting the bulletin, my day today has so far been less of -argh- and more of @@@.

Pulsing. Yes. Kaihe. One of Bruce´s big subjects. Pulsing is a technique that cuts across almost all (or probably all) of the 16 Neigong he has created the list out of. It´s like a unifying field-theory for the rest as well as a specific subject in and of itself.

Pulsing exists indirectly in all qigong and all IMA. It´s just that due to the depth of the information he acquired in China, Bruce has the nuts-and-bolts version of all the details about it, and how you put it in consciously into both moving and still practices, both for health, IMA and meditation or combinations of all three. When he teaches it he usually uses the qigong-set he calls Marriage of Heaven and Earth, as it is the easiest access-point to learn pulsing in, and from there spread it. I personally teach my students just to do it with one hand while sitting, first, for a long time, to give them a concrete and clear physical sense of what soft pulsing is, otherwise it is fairly easy to make the pulsing tense, and since the pulsing is linked straight to your internal speed and mind and CNS tense pulsing might be a bad idea... I wouldn´t teach doing it on others first, as this is not a very safe method, but would instead teach the hand-version I mention above, which gives a very clear sense of pulsing which then easily can be modulated and understood in depth before moving it directly into the rest of the body or into energy.

Yes, pulsing can be used but for fajing; depending on which version (physical or energetic) you would have to move into the more advanced version of pulsing Bruce calls Bend the Bow (Metal pulsing), a set that demands several years of practice of Marriage of Heaven and Earth and some other material to work safely. It is this kind of bow that is used in general make-´em-fly fajing, and even though the pulsing-mechanics still are the same the intention has changed. Pulsing is also used for extremly rapid openings and closings in strikes and yin/yang applications of all kinds, and makes movements very difficult to read as the telegraphy changes in disturbing ways. This rapid kaihe is combined with the spiraling and chanzijing in all IMA, and creates so many instant permutations of change it becomes almost impossible to counter.

Pulsing as a basic technique is linked to the Element of Wood. At more advanced levels of the daoist work, you start looking at how each and all of the Five Elements have different pulsings, and start researching how they work. The basic foundation training for pulsing, though, should be done in Wood, and students should be clearly taught to differentiate this so that they don´t mix-and-match and end up never grasping the difference between the Elements. This process is also continued in pure meditation-practices in the Water Tradition, where the student learns over long time to pulse more subtle ranges of energy with precision and clarity.

Not tooting my own horn here as I don´t teach this material to the general public or unvetted students, but this info might help you: http://www.livingstillness.se/marriage/eng. I have short explanations and overviews there of each of the sets he teaches, as well as a general intro to where his system comes from and how it is built up: http://www.livingstillness.se/qigong/sets

S-throws are very unpleasant, popular in Bagua, and simply mean that you are moving parts of your opponent one way and some other parts the other way (upper/lower back, say, or manipulating soft tissue in the arms to pull neck one way while hitting the rest of the spine in another). It creats an twisted S in their spine that isn´t, well, let´s just say that your chiropractor wouldn´t recommend it. This can also be done using the energy of Zuanquan in applications where you´re misaligning your opponent internally while moving them at the same time. Same thing is done through soft tissue-manipulation and internal pressure in push hands and rou shou and locking/breaking-practice.

Xinyiquan in the Philippines? :o Wow. Didn´t know. What teacher/lineage?



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.
Last edited by Daniel on Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: greatest taiji skill i've felt

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:03 am

SC is the abbreviation commonly used here for shuai chiao, also spelled shuai jiao.

Can you take someone's center and they still be balanced?

Can you unbalance someone and they still have their center?
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Re: greatest taiji skill i've felt

Postby chicagoTaiJi on Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:02 pm

of what use is such a pulsing?
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Re: greatest taiji skill i've felt

Postby Pat on Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:25 pm

jeez! EF sure is wordy lately!

to all the Old School fans in here, you know what i'm sayin-

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Re: greatest taiji skill i've felt

Postby Dean on Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:29 pm

Word! 8-) Old School all the way!
Last edited by Dean on Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: greatest taiji skill i've felt

Postby Daniel on Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:55 am

...that you are missing your pair of leather pants, so could not be in the picture?..


D.

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What ya reading for?

Postby escrima on Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:37 am

Image

Is it just me or does DMC look like he is about to enter into pi quan?

BTW if the words and sentence get too big for folks. Don't read it. I was a high school drop out so I understand the pain of putting up with non-nonsensical discussions. But if you think something of value is there, then grapple with it. One hundred fifty years ago before forced schooling American had better reading competency than today. It's a shame that we have been reduced to this:



Intellectual dialog and the corresponding benefits of such efforts especially in a written form would most likely be a lost art if not for internet bulletin boards. Let's raise the bar and not lower it.

Greatest Nejia/Taiji skill anyone?
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Re: greatest taiji skill i've felt

Postby TheMagician on Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:02 pm

Greatest baji skill I ever felt was when my Sifu, after I asked him to not go TO easy during a sparring session (I was young and foolish, what can I say =D), and he firmly shot me across the room with a shoulder to the solar plexus. After my cannonballination, I enjoyed a good few minutes of regaining my breath.

Nothing like being thrown through the air like a ragdoll by an old man!
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Re: What ya reading for?

Postby Dean on Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:44 pm

escrima wrote:
Intellectual dialog and the corresponding benefits of such efforts especially in a written form would most likely be a lost art if not for internet bulletin boards. Let's raise the bar and not lower it.

Greatest Nejia/Taiji skill anyone?

I agree that intellectual dialog might lead to some benefit. However, I'm still learning as much as I can. So I'm optimistic it (greatest taiji skills i've felt) will come. What exactly does Neija mean anyway? I've heard that term used before, but have yet to understand what it means. :)
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Re: greatest taiji skill i've felt

Postby everything on Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:23 pm

Was pushed with apparently absolutely zero movement and zero force. Moved as if by a magnet. The shit that people would understandably rationalize as being fake, hypnosis, etc., etc.. Can't imagine how far I'd be thrown if "pulsing" etc. were involved.
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Re: greatest taiji skill i've felt

Postby velalavela on Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:26 am

Greatest Tai Chi Skill I've ever seen: When Ma Yueh Liang and Wu Ying Hua visited New Zealand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHQv6fLpIoI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehiWgpxrwQM

Best Skill I've felt: Practicing pushing hands with his adopted daughter. She has great ability to find your centre or any hardness and apply fajing to push you/destroy your balance with great timing from anywhere.
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Re: greatest taiji skill i've felt

Postby TaoJoannes on Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:14 pm

everything wrote:Was pushed with apparently absolutely zero movement and zero force. Moved as if by a magnet. The shit that people would understandably rationalize as being fake, hypnosis, etc., etc.. Can't imagine how far I'd be thrown if "pulsing" etc. were involved.


That, from seniors in my class. Also, with weapons, feeling like you're hitting yourself with your own weapon is freaky.
oh qué una tela enredada que tejemos cuando primero practicamos para engañar
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Re: greatest taiji skill i've felt

Postby shmirsh on Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:34 pm

This is my first post here and the first thread I thought I could both offer something and ask for help at the same time. I am an absolute rank novice so when I'm talking about the "greatest skill" I've felt, I'm not really sure I'm qualified to judge. This is simply a sharing of the experience which has had me searching for a teacher for some considerable time now. Part of the reason for joining this site is to hear about the people you all respect so that I can possibly find one with whom I can study. My funds available for travel are limited and it's unlikely I'm going to talk my wife into permanently moving to China, so I'm hoping to find someone somewhere in Europe or the US who would accept a repeat visitor as a student.

A few years ago I retired and was giving myself a gift of a trip in Asia. While in Taiwan I bumped into a small group working out in the Taipei New Park and listened as the teacher was discussing qi. As a long time student of Chinese language and philosophy I thought I could understand the concepts well but had never had a direct experience of what was being discussed. The teacher offered to demonstrate something with one of his students and I asked if he would demonstrate on me directly - years of working with Chinese has led me to the understanding that 給老師面孔 (giving teacher face) is so ingrained in the psyche that they often don't even know that they are exaggerating teacher's skill. I need not have worried (or rather I should have been better prepared for the shock to follow). This gentleman had me stand so I felt firm and did a pushing action against my torso - this is where the world changed for me. I could feel the pressure of his hand, very light at the region of my solar plexus, but also I felt this warm rushing tingling feeling, like pins and needles - but increasingly hot and MUCH more intense. The sensation invaded my stomach, shot down my leg and the next thing I know I literally flew (off the ground, both feet) backwards I estimate 6-8 feet before my feet touched the ground again and I would definitely have fallen and probably injured myself at that point if his students hadn't caught me. I was amazed when he offered to let me try to uproot him. He effortlessly absorbed my pushing force until I was straining as hard as I could to move him, then I thought I would change tack and backed off and pushed all at once with as much strength as I could muster - he simply was not there and I fell on my face. I only had 3 days in Taiwan and spent them watching these guys. This is the only yardstick I have and have never found anyone remotely approaching it.

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Re: greatest taiji skill i've felt

Postby mixjourneyman on Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:41 pm

Hey, cool story. Not sure how thats done ;D
If your going to travel to the states for Kung Fu, why not pop by Montreal and check out Yang Hai.
I've never had him shoot me with qi blasts or anything, but I can attest that if what you want is the genuine article as far as internal martial arts training goes, he's probably the man to go to :D
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