greatest taiji skill i've felt

[ninepalace]

i went to a henry wang workshop a couple weeks ago. that guy is the only person i met who can actually put the back of his hand against mine and use less than four ounces to take away my center with virtually no movement.

when i shook his hand good-bye i noticed it felt very soft and small. i said "wow you have SOFT hands". he then told me to pull on his arm. i pulled with both hands as hard as i possibly could and he just felt relaxed and as if his feet were cemented into the floor. i did not budge him even a fraction of an inch.

his demonstrations have also made me conclude that there is probably no such thing as chi. or at least i'm sure that chi is not something used ON another person. after all, if someone who has trained in taiji as much as he has (probably over 20,000 hours) and has such sublime skills without using chi, i don't see why anyone else would.

my friend who has worked with him for 8 years and has seen him do even more remarkable things shares this opinion as well as the opinion that it is a shame someone with his gungfu would do "no touch" things with his students. at least he admits it requires cooperation...

[Muad'dib]

What makes you think that the ability to take your center away required no chi?

[ninepalace]

What makes you think that the ability to take your center away required no chi?

well he said he didn't. also, i didn't feel anything unusual. it just seems like he has the best angles and ultra-refined sensitivity. my friend who has worked with him 8 years totally disbelieves in chi as well and he can root pretty good too.

i'd like to add that i'm in no way a "dive bunny" or the type of taiji partner who jumps back with both feet off the ground to enhance being uprooted. my introduction into martial arts was through a school full of bullshit mystical explanations so i have no patience for superstitions and fantasy.

also, why would he have to use chi? it's not like he was violating the laws of physics or anything.

[shawnsegler]

Go to school, joel. Go learn something.

S

[Ian]

also, why would he have to use chi?

You're right - he wouldn't.

Plenty of teachers are able to pull off amazing stunts without referring to qi as something you use ON another person, or something that exists at all.

[johnwang]

who can actually put the back of his hand against mine and use less than four ounces to take away my center with virtually no movement.

What exactly do you mean "take away my center"? What happen afterward? Are you flying in the air? fall down on the ground? or still stand on both of your feet?

[klonk]

I have been trying to understand this taiji business for some years. I do not claim to understand it, but what works best for me is a continuous outward pressure, as if I were a balloon, inflating outward, and where the opponent touches, I both push forward or outward and roll away. This is contact and evasion in one move.

Only, contact with the balloon also needs to stick to and weigh down the opponent and hamper his moves and slow him down. Not easy at all.

Excellent question, JW. If all we are talking about is a delicate sensation and it cannot be made into something more powerful, we need to demote taiji from "fighting art" to "cool qigong."

The Classics say taiji is a great river rolling along without stopping. What we have today is more like a babbling brook that cannot stop babbling. (Not aimed at you, or Nine Palace, or anybody on EF Mk. II! Just speaking in general.)

I still think taiji can work. What I am short of is serious examples.

[johnwang]

Here is some serious examples. He will make everybody feel that the training that they have done all their life are useless and low level. His solution for problem is much simple and direct. Your opponent comes to you, you send him back, he comes again, you send him back again, ... After 60 years of this kind of repeation, your opponent will be too old to continue (or you will be too old to push). The problem is then solved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5MZoQPz99M

[klonk]

I still think my idea of a Taiji And Golden Gloves Exchange Day is a good idea, but no one else thinks so.

[ninepalace]

What exactly do you mean "take away my center"? What happen afterward? Are you flying in the air? fall down on the ground? or still stand on both of your feet?

what happens after he takes my center? pretty much whatever he wants since i am standing on marbles at that point. my legs pretty much just drop down since i don't push back or anything. henry doesn't do much fa jin at all, so if you go flying, it's because YOU made yourself fly, not him.

but that is what is so amazing to me, how he can take my center with such a small amount of movement--hardly any at all really.

that also reminds me... when i was doing "search center" (his version of push hands) with another guy he gave a verbal correction for my hip and centerline movement. i couldn't comply enough on my own so he put his fingers lightly on my shoulders and, man, i was instantly put into the groove. it was crazy. actually that was crazier than his ability to just take away my center, he could also use the same touch to make me move correctly like i was a marionette.

[Mut]

I still think my idea of a Taiji And Golden Gloves Exchange Day is a good idea, but no one else thinks so.

i like it.

[johnwang]

i am standing on marbles at that point. my legs pretty much just drop down since i don't push back or anything.

I guess my question is "Can you regain back your balance afterward or you finally fell?" A temporary balance lost is not a true balance lost as long as you can get your balance back.

[Little Bai]

I guess my question is "Can you regain back your balance afterward or you finally fell?"

A temporary balance lost is not a true balance lost as long as you can get your balance back.

That's kind of a nonsensical argument. You can ALWAYS regain your balance, unless you are dead. In case you fall down, you just stand up again, thereby regaining your balance. So unless you get killed by losing your balance, it's always temporary.

[johnwang]

May be I should make myself a bit more clear on this. The definition of "regain balance" is "the body didn't fall".

[Bao]

Being unbalanced means being weak. Then you have no support for strike, nor defend. IMO, If you have your opponent in an awkward position while standing up, it is better than letting him fall. If you want to follow your opponent down, you better have good ground fighting skills. If you dont want to follow him down, it is better to destroy him while standing up. "Letting" him "fall" is also not the same as crushing him with a throw.

Thus, "unbalancing" in the IMA striking world means keeping your opponent weak while standing, so you will destroy him easy without letting him fall down.