recommended MA podcast

[bailewen]

It is definately a double edged sword.

Just look at modern Wushu. It's origins are in a government attermt to improve quality by creating a national system. It can be compared to what is happening in education in the past 10 or 20 years in the states. Standardization vs. teacher control. My comment just now was in response to Graham's comment about how Japanese and Korean organizations make it easier to make a living doing those kinds of arts. I think you can pick and choose. You don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Also, re:

...academic degrees probably won't do much, though i've read several doctoral theses on the art. They all came up short and baffled....

Academic degrees are only one example of many sorts of qualifications. My brother is, IMO, maybe one of the most qualified film "curators" (for lack of a better term) in the country. He does programming for The Silent Movie Theatre in LA. He has only a high school diploma but, he also spent many years first as a video clerk and then later as a store manager. He and a couple of friends opened Cinefile Video in West LA and won "Best of LA" from the LA Weekly more than once. He has been interviewed several times on film related topics and has hosted numerous private showings from various art house film directors from around the country. There are probably only about 100 people in the entire country with his qualifications in terms of independant film programming and none of those qualifications are academic. They are however, recognized by others in the field.

I don't believe in credentials for credentials benifit or organization for the sake of organization but I do think that credentials and effective organizational structures are good indicators of relatice quality. Just look at Brazilian Jujistsu. Does anyone doubt the significance of a black belt in Brazillian Jujistsu? That is a serious qualification that no one with any serious MA experience can doubt.

The specifics of what credentials you value are up to you.

[GrahamB]

If the Japanese and Korean organizations are better organized, then maybe we should be studying them, at least studying their organizational structure anyways.

Maybe their arts just fit better into being TOLD WHAT TO DO in a very organised way? 'Bow to your Sensei' and all that. Very militaristic. For example, wasn't one of the ideas of Judo that it was designed to be taught in schools? It varies, but a lot of (traditional) CMA is very into, you know - going with the flow, the Tao and all that. That doesn't fit very well into the 'putting things in boxes' mindset. In contrast, the modern WuShu stuff is much more organised.

[Bodywork]

In the Japanese side of things there exists a small group of men who are master level teachers in more than one art. To reach that level it means your teacher has given you the authority to own the name of an art. These arts, all hundreds of years old, have battlefield tested techniques, historical representation and recognition on a national scale, and were NOT given to westerners. That these men rose to become the elite in an art-to the point that they were entrusted to carry forward the name is quite an accomplishment
To have done so in more than one is incredible, something The Japanese rarely aspire to.
These guys are credentialed in other areas as well. Those that I personally know hold ranks requiring many years of study in multiple arts, including ICMA. They just don't talk about it. They are walking libraries of information, insight and opinion. You can add to their list that many are authors; both professionally, and in Budo. Ellis (in the podacst mentioned)springs to mind, in that his career; dealing with de-escalation of stress and crisis intervention, and the five or six books he has written on the subject merges well with his budo career and the books he has written on those subjects. His latest work (soon to be released) is a discussion of how the ICMA may be connected and have influenced Daito ryu and how that training directly influenced Aikido.
http://www.ellisamdur.com/

Meik Skoss holds the highest rank and ownership of two Classical arts (like Ellis) and also holds rank in Judo, Aikido, Jukendo, and is highly ranked in a third classical Koryu-involving the use of the stick (the creator of which is the only person known to have defeated Musashi) and is co-author of several books on Koryu and was a researcher with Donn Draeger.
http://www.koryu.com/

Then you have Phil Relnick; multiple Menkyo Kaiden holder (one of which is the stick art previously mentioned and is Meiks teacher in that art) and a Menkyo in the oldest continuously taught Martial tradition in Japan involving knife, sword, stcik, spear, naginata and jujutsu. And holds rank in Judo, Aikido, Iai, and others. He trained with Ueshiba, was there to witness the now famous incident when Wang ChuShin showed up and started tossing all those large capable Japanese Martial artists around at Donn's house, and became a student of Wang's and he was a long time personal friend-maybe the closest-to Donn Draeger.

The nice thing is none of these men make a big deal out of their creds. I would add that they are incredibly entertaining and brilliant, hell even funny. They are as down to earth...scratch that. MORE down to earth and settled-in then most men I have met in budo. Show them something they don't know and they are like kids again. I have been drinking and talking shop and ended up on Kitchen floors fighting and testing and yaking to 1:00 am, this after training all day, and getting up to train the next day. All while their students were tucked in sleeping. They are the epitome of an "active mind."

The internet, that great equalizer tends to dismiss these people as well as the body of knowledge they possess. I have sat in awe as some ignorant suburban commando argued the finer points of Japanese budo with them and the only person to take umbrage...was the ignorant suburban sensei.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
Cheers
Dan

[bailewen]

Thanks man.

That much seemed obvious to me. I have been mystified at the sort of, what I can only call "anti-intelletualism" that I keep bumping into. I don't know where the idea comes from that intellectual knowledge is indicitive of a lack of actual skill. My experience has almost always been the exact opposite. All the true masters of the game I have ever met were, like you said, walking encyclopedias in one form or another. They were students of the game. They used ALL their facilities to get better, not just their muscles and bones.

I found the podcasts (interviews with some of the very top Aikidoka) inspirational.

[Bodywork]

You are exactly right. My only advise is to follow that view. Stick to it. Ignore the internet idiots who don't get it. They're easy to spot. Free advise from an older guy...they never do get smart. They stay stupid and just get older. Ever notice the tendency to resent those who are smarter and more accomplished? It's why they can't acknowledge hard won accomplishments and seek to level the playing field in any venue they can.
Conversely, the teachers we are discussing-at least the ones I know- are more than willing to play, experiment and share. Just when the kids expect them to be all "experty" and "stuffy"- there they are all sweaty and shit and asking "How did you do that?" or "Wanna see something cool?" "We do it this way...Bam!" and are right in there as one of the guys. They are into information; mental and physical, and have no use for sycophants, pretense, formality for formality sake, or intellectualism for it's own sake. IME, none of them ask to be treated differently. They respect the information and knowledge almost as a third party entity, and have no use for someone who can't respect the information.

From being on the net since it's inception, and after meeting and feeling the abilities of hundreds of players who routinely offer opinions on-line. I continue to be amazed that many of them think they have any opinion worth sharing. Sometimes I am fankly stunned. But,then again Martial artists have always been a wierd bunch.
Cheers
Dan

[josh]

Haven't listened to the podcasts yet, but this is an interesting topic of discussion. I agree with Omar that, for whatever reason, it is more common for people in the JMA scene to be interested in Japanese culture from an academic perspective. Even in my own limited experience, I have known at least 2 professors in Japanese studies who also hold ranks in some sort of classical martial art, and I have met several grad students in that field who were also practitioners. I have yet to personally meet another grad student or professor in Chinese studies who practices CMA. But, there are lots of differences between the fields of Japanese studies and Chinese studies, one significant one being the fact that "martial culture" or "martial arts" is generally considered a legitimate and even mainstream topic of study within the field of Japan studies, whereas I don't believe that is really the case on the "China side," at least in Western Sinology. You can find any number of books on samurai, swordsmanship, even unarmed JMA published by scholarly presses, but I can only think of a couple people who have published "academic" studies of CMA.
I also don't quite understand why this is such a touchy topic for some, but I have witnessed some rather acrimonious debates here in which people were very vocal about their distrust of "scholars" or "academics" intruding upon their practice/understanding of CMA.

[ashe]

O-sensei (and Dan),

I see what both of you are saying. I'll try and word my "rebuttal" carefully, since i think there are multiple facets, or levels to this subject, and when looking at one facet, I can say that i agree with you, but when viewed from another, i'll have to hold my initial position that it makes little difference whether you have that sort of credentialing or not.

on the most superficial level, the type of creds/achievements by the example given are important in a marketing sense. when people are deciding who to train with, the folks with money to spend will look to the most credentialed instructor they can find. all martial arts schools say they'll teach you self defense, get you fit and teach you the secrets of inner peace, but that all sounds SO much more legitimate when the guy saying it is a full contact champion/ex-leo/ex-mil, is a CSCS and holds a degree in Asian philosophy when you compare it to sensei joe down at the Y, even IF joe is more qualified.

on another level, those types of creds/achievements are representative of a deep level of commitment and persistence that you won't find in the casual practitioner. again, i think it comes down to professionalism.

but on the deepest level, i really think that most of that is all brocade.

let me try to explain why;

ILC is based on Zen, on just observing, recognizing and realizing, which is a very different thing altogether than accumulated academic knowledge. In fact, that type of knowledge can actually hinder your understanding, because, if even on an sub-conscious level, your cup is already so full. in ILC we hear all the time "there's nothing to learn, just recognize what's already there" or "there's nothing to accumulate and no need to imitate".

now you could say that talk is cheap, but in my own personal case i have direct access to living proof. ellis is WAY more accomplished in that sense than my Sifu, but i know that my Sifu has the kind of skill that people from all over the work are looking for, that they're willing to pay to travel around the world to study from him. serious guys who are already well established in their own right like serge augier.

now all of that doesn't mean that i'm not actively pursuing some certs myself, because i am, just that i'm keeping what that means in perspective.

[bailewen]

Good post and especially for managing to intelligently, respectfully and fairly accurately summarize the opposing point of view. It sets the stage for more intelligent conversation.

That being said, although I myself am apparently a bit of a credential whore, I must admit, my own Shifu has, I believe, no more than a high school education (if that) and bascically the only paper credential he has is his position on a local city martial arts board of directors. His main credenital is just his lineage and, more significantly to me, the fact that everybody else in Xi'an seems scared to challenge him directly. lol oh yeah, and that on matters of Buddhism and Chinese medicine, many credentialed folks seem to still look to him for help in understanding certain aspects. The rules also change a bit when you grew up in China and lived through both the Great Leap Forward and also the Cultural Revolution.

So I can see both sides. I actually did not mean to argue that folks must of should have excellent credentials. I don't think the experiential knowledge and the self taught knowledge are contradictory with the more "official" sources or knowledge. I mainly am looking at this side here:

on another level, those types of creds/achievements are representative of a deep level of commitment and persistence that you won't find in the casual practitioner. again, i think it comes down to professionalism.

To me, the lack of certain credentials says little but their presence says a lot. . . if that makes sense.

[Bodywork]

Ashe write?:

but on the deepest level, i really think that most of that is all brocade.

it makes little difference whether you have that sort of credentialing or not.

Ashe
What makes little difference?
1. Fighting?
2. Information that is hundreds of years old and still works that is being preserved through them?
Being privy to that level of information myself I can only say that while I understand the "Brocade comment" It just doesn't pan out. There exists very practical, and tactical information about the use of weapons, what to do with the body to drive them, how to train, what does not work etc. It's a mistake to think its all dilitant and fauntlaroy information. Hell, the source is hundreds of years of record keeping from soldiering and fighting. They were nuts about keeping records.
3. Or that their level of input and access to information is treated the same as a twenty year old suburban kid?

Were it only fighting we can of course discuss a whole other level of creds that has less to do with academia and more to do with being able to deliver and teach. Hell, we could even get into some nasty shit that is just as elite an experience as the "intellectual" elite experience is. I think we agree -that- makes a very valid counter argument to the historical information only comment. But like I said some of the guys I know can share stories that will curl your hair in that department too. They have lived some gritty lives.
So What makes little difference?
Or did you mean to include all of the above...?
Dan

[ashe]

The credentials and accolades, in and of themselves make little difference in terms of skill on touch.

But having them doesn't necessarily preclude having the skill either.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that all that acheivement doesn't replace the need to spend 10000 hours to refine your practice into something real.

[bailewen]

But it certainly does add to it.

As shifu told me once, all wu and no wen, always a soldier. Generals need both.

[AllanF]

Just listened to the Ellis Amdur pod cast...really liked it so very interesting insights there. And i am a taiji guy!

[bailewen]

Thank god somebody's actually listening to the podcasts. I mean after all, that is the official topic of the thread. I see Graham has given them a listen too as he recommended one of them on his blog on Ashe's site.

But back to the other topic this has spawned. . . (almost wish it was a different thread. Something about credentials and their place....)

...Hell, we could even get into some nasty shit that is just as elite an experience as the "intellectual" elite experience is. I think we agree -that- makes a very valid counter argument to the historical information only comment. But like I said some of the guys I know can share stories that will curl your hair in that department too. They have lived some gritty lives....

This is why I said earlier:

...Academic degrees are only one example of many sorts of qualifications....

All sort of credentials that do not include a slip of paper. For example, Ashe, I would consider Sam's record of training many students to become successful full contact fighters a true credential and I consider the teacher certificates he awards a credential as legitimate as any degree. I just think that there are a hell of a lot of credentials besides skill that count. Dan just spelled out a few of the better ones. Military experience is certainly a credential. Lineage is another.

Think of it this way, if you were creating a resume as a martial artist (something I actually did last year) what would you put on it? Just like any professional resume, sometimes what you want to focus on is not so much you "work experience" but rather your training or better still, your accomplishments. Sometimes this means getting a bit creative. It also forces you to think about what you really think might be valuable as a credential.

-Created a physical fitness program for middle school students?
-Trained LEO's?
-Frequent interview subject? Are you an official or semi-official spokesperson for your style?
-All that academic stuff?
-Fight record?
-Students? Accomplishments of your students?
-etc.

[Bodywork]

The credentials and accolades, in and of themselves make little difference in terms of skill on touch. But having them doesn't necessarily preclude having the skill either.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that all that acheivement doesn't replace the need to spend 10000 hours to refine your practice into something real.

Agreed. At the end of the day -your- understanding ...is in you hands.
All it takes is a minute to size someone up and see where they're at.
Of the two, if I could have only one thing; these skills or the knowledge of them, I'd keep the skills. But I'd rather have both.
The comment about tens of thousands of hours to refine it is true. But even that is just not good enough.
To sum up
We’ve all seen the result of guys who “just” studied and practiced for tens of thousands of hours.
We’ve all seen the result of guys who practiced for tens of thousands of hours with an active mind, dogged determination, self discipline, and intelligence.
Dan

[somatai]

Interesting conversation.....i listened to the podcast with Ellis Amdour, great stuff. Really look forward to his new book. I think a refined aesthetic sense happens with proper training, these arts should and do in my experience change one at every level. A blossoming of consciousness through deeply embodied presence, a somatic awakening.