2008 Great Lakes SC Tourney

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

2008 Great Lakes SC Tourney

Postby nianfong on Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:37 pm

just salvaging from the old forum
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 11:26am
It went great. The seminars by David Chang and Daniel Weng were both very fun and I learned a lot. The tourny was in a good location, parking was a bitch. It was a little unorganized and everything ran late but it was the first time at this venue. There were a lot of shuai chiao competitors. I think tehre was around 50 adults total and about 30 or so children and a good showing of ladies too. The competition was pretty great and there were lots of good close matches. I think 3 Weight classes ended with matches between 2 black belts. They were all great close matches. Unfortunately their were 2 injuries requiring hospital visits both to the knee. One of them was from leg blocking and I don't know about the other one. I wish those guys well and I hope they recover quickly. Both of the fighters who were injured were from Cleveland.

I was in the open weight division, 216 and up. I won my first match, but that is nothing to brag about. My competitor was a young teenager who was about as big as me, I heard he was only 14. He hadn't been doing shuai chiao long and I felt kind of bad for him because he didn't get a single throw or takedown. I hope he doesn't get discouraged and sticks with it. My second match was against someone who somehow got a pass on the first set of matches. I got a 4 point lead pretty quick but I started to get tired. I gassed out halfway trhough the first round and we ended tied at 6 points. The second round ended tied 10 points. I lost in overtime. I think I would have been able to win that match had I been better conditioned. My conditioning sucks big balls. This was the first time I have competed in anything since I was 10 so it really drove in the point of how important conditioning is for me, and how badly I need to lose some weight! Well the other winner of the first set of matches in the open division also had to go against a fresh competitor who got a pass on the first round. The fresh guy was definitely better and won pretty easily. So the two guys who won their first matches against myself and the other winner of the first round went on to have a match for first place. They forgot to have a match with me and the other guy to determine third. I didn't mind to much though as I was beat. After eveything was over a couple coaches brought up the discrepancy and they ended up giving out extra third place trophies to the forgotten, lol. Overall I had a great time and learned a lot from my matches and watching all the others.

There was also a shuai chiao forms competition which was really cool. One of Matt Molica's students won first with a very nice performance. This was the first time the form had been done in competition in the US. I would like to learn it at some point in time.

The event also had forms comps, tai chi, push hands, weapons, continuous light contact sparring, and san shou. The san shou didn't start till pretty late. I felt bad for all the guys that had been waiting around all day to compete. I watched a few matches and then went to go get cleaned up and get dinner. There were some good fighters but you could see that most people were gassing out by the second round. Next year I plan on entering the san shou as well provided I can get in good enough condition. This event made it very clear that conditioning is VERY important in competitive combat.

I also learned my first xingyi form. I really like it and I have a ton of work to do on it.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 11:38am
hey dude! sorry I came to the seminar late... I was tasked with taking david chang to lunch, and it took longer than expected, and janyu said I didn't need to come back to help teach.

glad that you had a good time.

two people getting injured was actually more than I've ever seen at a US SC tourney. there was maybe 1 a few years ago, but I rarely ever see them. too bad I didn't get to see your match--I was judging in the center mat. your teacher was corner judge on the opposite corner! haha.


-Fong
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 11:48am
Yea I was wondering which of the Cali guys was you but I figured it would look wierd running around asking for Nianfong since I don't know your name and I assume that is a intarweb handle.

I am hoping to make it out in August but I can't make any promises. Had you met my teacher before?
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 11:51am
my name is Fong, man... you could have just asked my teacher after the xingyi seminar Wink. or any of the cupertino crew.

I don't think I met your teacher until that day, but he seemed like a good guy. too bad you guys didn't come to dinner with us afterwards.

I brought david chang in at around 2:30 for the tail end of the seminar.

-Fong
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:13pm
LOL my bad then. I assumed it was your internet name. I had to get home right after the seminar but it would have been cool to go to dinner with you guys. I am sure you would really like my teacher. He is a very nice guy and really pleasant to be around. Heck sometimes I think the only reason I stay in Ohio is for his teaching.

I first met Daniel Weng last fall at the seminar in columbus and I was surprised at how open and nice he is. I really like him and Janyu (spelling?). So far I think all of GM Chang's students I have met in person have been really cool people. What I find interesting is how much their own personal styles and what aspects of MA they focus on differ. It's very fascinating.

Are you guys going to be posting a video of the form competition? I want to learn that form and the rest of the one we did in the SC seminar. I really liked the applications that were taught with it.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:39pm
the one we learned at the seminar was the first maybe 1/4th of jiao quan #2.

the one at the competition was jiao quan #1. a much simpler form. I mostly practice it left handed now. I think i've seen a jiao quan form online on youtube before.... Ill look for it later. wade giles romanization is chiao ch'uan

jiao quan 2 is pretty amazing so far. I know a few more moves past what we learned at the seminar, but hopefully janyu will be conveying more moves to us this coming class on sunday. I always visit david in taiwan, so I've actually known the jiao quan #1 form for like 4-5 years now. I would have competed if my back were not still injured.
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 1:14pm
How did you hurt your back if you don't mind me asking?

Do you have any idea to the origins of these forms also?
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 1:27pm
the forms were handed down in traditional baoding SC, but were much more secretive until now. david chang is distributing it through the chang family SC schools bit by bit. They really contain a lot of knowledge from the old masters that could not have just been made up by david.

there are 3 levels to baoding SC, unknown to my teacher or lots of others until recently:
1) gongli jiao (power jiao), which jiao quan is from, and is meant to develop power, coordination, etc.
2) huobu jiao (live foot jiao), which is the next level, is meant to develop grappling skills during SC sparring.
3) sanshou jiao (fighting jiao), is for actual combat, where you use your elbows/strikes to set up throws, or just KO someone.

so far in all the seminars and times I've seen him, I've learned jiao quan 1, jiao quan 2's first few moves, 3 short forms of huobu jiao, an elbow form (for sanshou jiao), and and some fundamentals like the baba shou (8 8 hands) which trains how to deal with various grips, and various training drills for hooking and lou/shaving.

at the seminar in the beginning, david taught 2 levels of the 8 8 hands, and the first few moves of jiao quan #2.
Posted by: josh Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 2:15pm
Really interesting to hear about these shuaijiao forms. I'm curious, do you usually practice them as taolu (and if so, are they symmetrical), or are they meant to be broken apart into individual drills? And do you ever practice the forms with apparatus?
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 2:38pm
the jiao quan forms are taolu, and you usually learn them right handed first. when you master that, you practice left handed. then you practice one handed (really quite interesting). the huobu jiao forms are very short, and you also practice them right handed first, then left handed later. the elbow form is done all at once, right first, and left in the second half.

it's really cool cause when you are in elbow range, you're in throwing range, so it makes complete sense to combine elbow strikes with shuaijiao.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 2:39pm
apparatus.... you might be able to do belt cracking with a lot of it, but I think it might not work for some parts of the forms.
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 5:38pm
what exactly is a taolu?
Posted by: ashe Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 11:25pm
on Apr 22nd, 2008, 5:38pm, Deus Trismegistus wrote:
what exactly is a taolu?


taolu = form

fong, how did you do? you were going to compete in the taiji forms division?
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 11:38pm
nah I didn't compete. back was a little weird after working out on friday with david chang. plus I didn't feel right competing, when I wasn't well prepared. I did the form in front of david chang, and my balance went off a few times, which is not how I'd compete. so I didn't.
Posted by: ashe Posted on: Apr 23rd, 2008, 12:17am
dude that sux. Sad
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: Apr 24th, 2008, 1:08am
for the curious, and those that know what the shuai-jiao basic technique forms are, here is a list of the jiao quan techniques. though it's really the transitional movements that are were all the good stuff is.

jiao quan #1
1) opening posture, fists held out around waist height, with arms bent. feet shoulder width apart.
2) "cat wiping face" type motion, finishing with fists snapping to same place as opening posture, like tying a belt.
3) pull right fist to waist, left hand covering in front of the fist. feet together.
4) pushing form (drop to horse stance, hands push forward with horizontal palms)
5) open arms up in circles, left hand crosses in front of face to "cut" your own right shoulder with knife edge. right hand goes back to right waist, palm forward, fingers down.
6) diagonal striking, right hand
7) neck surrounding, left hand
Cool elbow locking, right hand
9) diagonal pulling, left hand
10a) (this portion is a hip throw form) swing arms over the head and sink weight back to left leg. arms are right hand forward, left hand somewhat behind, both in fists. this is the beginning for a....
10b) hip throw form, where you drill the right fist down, into a palm next to the waist, pushing down, with fingers pointing to your right. left hand is pushing up, above the head. you turn around with this of course, into a narrow horse stance.
10c) bowing
11a) (this is a lower body control leg blocking form) left hand up first, right hand up after, putting the right foot forward while backweighted.
11b) drill the right hand down while stealing step with left leg behind.
11c) right neck surrounding
12a) (this is an upper body control leg blocking, gripping with headlock) splitting hands into steal step with left foot behind
12b) right neck surrounding, with right elbow in an upward ark, with elbow ending pointed up.
13) keeping feet the same, 分手, 蓋手, 彈手, 攞手 fen, gai, tan, luo hands. upon luo hands, right foot slides forward into backweighted stance.
14a) (this is a middle body control leg blocking, gripping under the armpit). splitting hands into steal step with left foot behind.
14b) right neck surrounding, with arm swinging in horizontal arc.
15a)(this is a pulling throw) stand up straight, left fist coming to shoulder, bending elbow with elbow pointing straight ahead.
15b) right fist swings up and right forwarm crosses the left forearm. in an X, while stealing, left foot behind
15c) right cracking form
16) (continuous cracking) turning around and doing another right cracking form.
17a) (embracing form) right hand swings two arcs while sliding forward in horse stance, right foot forward. final posture has right arm in horizontal elbow, right fist in front of chest. left hand about 2 inches underneath right fist.
17b) slide left foot next to right foot until you stand up straight, while pushing the right elbow upwards. left hand maintains position 2 inches "under" right fist.
17c) like a baseball pitch, lean back, and swing arms like throwing with the left hand. left fist ends about waist height, right hand ends in fist next to right waist. feet in right bow stance, you stepped straight backwards.
18a) (shoulder throw) pull left fist back to left waist while "punching" forward with right standing fist, backweighted, right foot forward.
18b) slide left fist under right fist while engaging steal step with left foot behind.
18c) lift hands up above head, and right bowing
18d) immediately bring right fist up in horizontal fist, left hand in fist at left waist, back into horse stance.
19) feet shoulder width apart, stand up. cat washes face (as in 2), into tying belt motion.
20) bring right fist back to right waist, and cover with left hand (As in 3). feet together.
21) step left foot forward into bow stance while presenting fist and hand together as salute, straight ahead.
22) pull fists in, flip fists over and rake them downards with double backfists downward until both fists are next to waist.
23) hands on hips, bow (not bowing form, just a normal bow).
24) stand up straight, release qi from hands, then close them aagain with a hole in the middle of the fist. (closing)

with permission of people I filmed doing it, I'll see if I can post a youtube of this.
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