xingyi variants, shanxi and hebei?

[chud]

I'm not going to act like I know more than I do, but having trained Shanxi and Hebei methods, I can say that the Shanxi is much more sophisticated and circular. Hebei is good and powerful too, but many practitioners seem to want to make their movements very hard like karate and not learn the style to it's fullest extent. I find the Hebei style to be defensively lacking too.

I agree 100% with your assessment that Shanxi is more circular and smooth, while Hebei is more crisp/hard. I first learned Pi Quan in Shanxi style from Doc Stier, then the Hebei (TST) way, and to me the differences are just like you said.
I would only disagree with your last sentence about Hebei being defensively lacking, I prefer Coach Dai's statement that "Any system of XY is potentially devastatingly effective."

[xingyijuan]

I'm staying away from this argument, if only to say to Chris Flemming that, if the Hebei you were taught lacked defense, blame it only on your teacher. It has one of the most solid defenses. It's sad to see that some of it is getting lost in that manner.

[I-mon]

thanks again for helping me with my history folks.

Chris I wasn't actually asking what the differences were, just how many different styles there are and who taught them, and where they learned.

Beegs mentioned another type of xingyi in shanxi besides dai, che and song. JB do you know what he's talking about? Jarek are you there?

ok now for my next question:

Do we know if any of these big names in xingyi learned directly or officially from any teachers of xinyiliuhe?

[Chris Fleming]

Fellas fellas, I didn't say that Hebei had no defense and I didn't say that it is too hard.

The problem with the hardness comes from practitioners who believe that they should become harder and harder and that is the way to go. You first start soft to learn the mechanics, then develop the power, but then you have the refine your movements and become soft again. That's the step that many people don't take. Rather some tend to (and you'll see this at tournaments all day) get to the point where they look like they are doing some kind of obscure form of karate. That's not Hebei's fault but the practitioners. That style gets very internal if you take it further as one should.

As for defense, all I am noting is the difference in mindsets. Hebei looks very good for entering. Shanxi looks very good for opportunistic offense. With the Shanxi I practice, there are at least two defensive counters before the attack on most of the elements, rather than Hebei's straight forward attacks. Zhuan shoots right in with Hebei, Shanxi has defensive motions before the attack.

The problem is that many xing yi guys believe themselves to be the reincarnation of the divine crushing fist himself and think that in any fight they'll just walk right up and beng any opponent into oblivion. That may work many times, but it's also a good way to get knocked out because real fights don't (always) work that way. Dai said find what works for you and I agree 100%. That's why I think it's good to research where xing yi came from, and work on both (or any other) methods because they all have excellent benefits to offer.

[GrahamB]

Chris,

Have you considered that Hebei's "straight forward attacks" don't lack defense, but actually contain the defensive movements. It's just that you've never worked that out or been shown it/taught it?

As the Hebei Tzuann "shoot right in" what do you think the other hand is doing? Nothing?

Sincerely,
Graham

p.s. There's also a school of thought that purely defensive motions are a wasted move compared to simultaneous attack and defence. Strange you talk about karate a lot. That has a lot of purely defensive moves.

[BajiFan]

That tends to be my preference as well. Like deflecting with a slight motion while striking. You've got two arms and two legs. Might as well make them useful ;-)

[xingyijuan]

Like I said, too bad things get lost along the way.

[beegs]

end of the day, this dude is entitled to his opinion, whether we agree or disagree, he may see things in his views and that is acceptable. i disagree with some statements and i disagree with shanxi not entering right away, etc, but if thats how you see it, i may disagree, but not start a flame war.


i think alot has to do with what build the teacher had that on learnes from, if your teacher is a solid stocky type guy, many times they will use more power and firmness, whereas a guy like sun lutang will be using more footwork, etc, so depending on who the hebei was transferred from, you may see this. Many americans were taught hebei by some pretty solid big dudes, maybe we can see some of their influences in their students, and maybe that has been what you are exposed too?(just guessing)


i agree many people think they are the crushing fist, ha ha, , funny stuff though

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

There's a Hebei Xinyi lineage in Taiwan passed down by Li Dong-Yuan, who was a direct student of Li Cun-Yi.

The system contains praying mantis and crane (like Dai Zhi Qiang mentioned in another thread) in the animal forms, complex neigong method, Li Cun Yi's sabre form, and many variations not commonly seen in typical Hebei systems.

I believe the reason some people think Hebei style lacks certain elements comparing to Shanxi's is because they've never been exposed to the complete system -- materials only avaliable to very few indoor disciples. Since Hebei style was taught to many, naturally the practitioners had varying levels of understanding and access to the complete art. The great number of practitioners also meant that there was a greater chance for the style to become watered-down as generations went by, which is what most practitioners are left with today -- the incomplete Hebei system.

This system sounds very interesting, do you think you can find out any more about this?

Jon.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

if I remember correctly, li luo neng learned from the dai family, then started xingyiquan. he went to his home province hebei first, taught a bunch of people, then went to shanxi and taught some people. then he went back to hebei, and continued teaching there. So pretty much, hebei style is most directly what li luo neng practiced, or raised at least.

if you all remember your history correctly, xinyiliuhe started in shanxi province. I think this is why li luo neng went back to teach it there. and so shanxi style probably integrates more of the original xinyiliuhe stuff in--which is likely where the differences come from.

-Fong

Ji Long Feng was originally from Shanxi, I think if I remember one of the stories, is he then passed his art onto either a Li? or one other person, who then taught this Li, who then taught Ma Xue Li. Ma then becoming the ancestor of the Henan school.

JB.

[Chris Fleming]

Chris,

Have you considered that Hebei's "straight forward attacks" don't lack defense, but actually contain the defensive movements. It's just that you've never worked that out or been shown it/taught it?

As the Hebei Tzuann "shoot right in" what do you think the other hand is doing? Nothing?

I know exactly what you are talking about. At the same time, that would be great if you have an opponent who only attacks you once at a time. I mis-spoke, the Zhuan I practice from the Shanxi style has at least three blocks before the attack, which to me fits more by a real fight due to how people throw multiple attacks. That to me is actually containing the defensive movements, and practicing that way insures that you are working on them.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

thanks again for helping me with my history folks.

Chris I wasn't actually asking what the differences were, just how many different styles there are and who taught them, and where they learned.

Beegs mentioned another type of xingyi in shanxi besides dai, che and song. JB do you know what he's talking about? Jarek are you there?

ok now for my next question:

Do we know if any of these big names in xingyi learned directly or officially from any teachers of xinyiliuhe?

As far as finding out what Xing Yi Quan branches are in Shanxi the best person to ask would be Tadzio as he has been living there for the past decade.

As for what I know (which is F.A), I will try

1. Song Shi Xing Yi Quan (Zhao Yongchang, Song Huchen (Li Guichang), Tian Shi (Song Tielin). Supposedly the Li Guichang style has elements of Taji and also some Nan Quan influence as well.

2. Che Xing Yi Quan

3. ? not too sure about a 3rd style separate from the ones mentioned above.

As for Imon's question regarding has their been any exchange between Xinyiliuhequan and Xing Yi Quan, I don't personally think so, not if you are referring to a long time ago anuyway. Nowdays this is more common as things are more open and styles are more ready available.

Jon

[Pandrews1982]

Hebei standard lineage to Li Cun Yi as this is what people seem to be mainly looking at.

Yue Fei - Yue family boxing passed to his family and officers

No documented link for around 500 years

Ji Long Feng/Ji Jike most likely learnt yuechiaquan (yue family boxing) at Zhongnan Mountain in Shanxi. Ji then developed xinyiliuhe from observation of animal characteristics, his number 1 animal being the chicken/rooster. Ji passed on his art to Cao Ji Wu and Ma Xulie.

Ma Xulie began henan/muslim xinyiliuhe and passed this to his family and close initiates.

Cao Ji Wu is said to have taught Dai Long Bang.

Dai Long Bang modified the Xinyiliuhe with Dai family boxing techniques and possibly with other influence from the Niu family (who also have an ansestral link to Yue Fei through one of his generals). Dai created Dai style xinyi and passed on to his family and close initiates including some say Li Neng Ran

Li Neng Ran learnt Xinyi from the Dai family, most say from Dai Long Bang but may have been another member of the Dai clan. Have also heard that Li may have had contact with the Niu family also.

Li taught students in Shanxi and Hebei,Li was a native of Hebei but worked often in Shanxi as a bodyguard and caravan escort. His students includes Che Yi Zhai and Song Shirong (Shanxi) and Gou Yun Shen and possibly Li qui lan in hebei.

Gou Yun shen was a famous student of Li Neng Ran and depending on the source it is said he trained Li Qui Lan and Li Cun Yi. Other sources say Li Qui land learnt from Li neng ran and Li Cun Yi form Li Qui Lan. I have seen sources which say Li Qui Lan was taught by Li Neng Ran and others (including my own school) who say he was trained by Gou Yun Shen. The truth is likely to be a mix of both. Its likely that Li Qui lan got some tuition from Li Neng Ran but a lot from Gou Yun Shen who was a more senior student. The same may be true of Li Cun Yi having instuction from both Li Qui Lan and Guo yun shen. In most traditional style classes the teacher/master may teach a small number of people extensively and give some tuition to others leaving the main bulk of their instruction to the senior students.

I don't know much about the Niu/Niew family and their relationship to Xing Yi, only that they may have influenced Dai long bang and Li neng ran in some way, if anyone has any further info i'd be interested to know more. I suspect any info may well be in chinese texts and as a non-chinese speaker or reader and living in the UK I have never had the chance to access anthing for further research.

What is important to understand is that henan, dai, shanxi, hebei, are all from the same root, the same core values and principles. If you got a henan, dai, che/song (shanxi) and a hebei person to show their stuff all at the same time you'd say they were all xing yi with different aspects emphasised. Thing is none are better or worse or more or less complete than the others. Also just because Hebei Xing Yi has gone through more change/evolution than henan xinyiliuhe or dai xinyi it doesn't make it less effective or somehow inferior, the core principles are still there but the way of learning them is different. Its like different flavours of ice cream, they are all made from milk but each has its own distinctiveness, maybe Henan is Vanilla and Hebei is Rocky Road?

In hebei it is often the development of external structure and power through movement are emphasised first and this can sometimes make it seem like it is "hard". Once structure and power are developed, strategy, relaxation and internal power are developed. This is usually done by studying the 12 animals in depth. If you have only learnt Wu Xing in hebei style you may have not been exposed to the higher levels of practice, a lot of people are even shown the animals without being shown the more internal aspects. Within every direct movement in Hebei style is internal circling/spiraling movement. Externally it may often look hard and direct but in fact it is very subtle and difficult to apply correctly. The top defense of hebei style is "no defense" hit the guy without needing to block, slip, redirect or intercept the incoming strike, any of these actions is wasted time, energy and movement. The direct nature isn't therefore tryign to block or blast through an attack, its direct because there is no attack to deal with, its already missed.

What is interesting is that Hebei style obviously has a massive influence from Guo Yun Shen, he's prominent in almost all Hebei lineages. Most people have heard about Guo but don't realise how much he effected the style, especially after seeking out Che Yi Zhai and then learning the animals. Look at his students, Sun Lu Tang and Wang ZangZhai who developed their own systems of fighting from individual characteristics and internal principles. . It is evident that Gou emphasised an individual approach, take what comes naturally and develop it whilst keeping the core of Xing Yi principles. If Hebei style is hard and based on 5 elements then how did Yi quan with its emphasis on internal power and basic movements evolve? Its clear to me that Gou Yun Shen was much more than "half step beng" and hebei style is much more than 5 elements.

I liked the comment earlier about praying mantis and crane being animals in one school. I've done a bit of wild cat and crane, not within the standard 12 animals of my school. It shows that hebei has an aspect of invividualism and experimentation still,to look at nature and find strategies and principles rather than stick to set "forms" "techniques" etc. as Ji long feng did when he developed xinyi. Whether this is something that Gou Yun Shen reintroduced or emphasised I don't know.

Do Dai, Henan or Shanxi schools look to develop new animals, new styles, emphasise individuality? I don't know so I'd appreciate if anyone with direct experience could provide more info.

[I-mon]

thanks. i feel educated.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Hebei standard lineage to Li Cun Yi as this is what people seem to be mainly looking at.

Yue Fei - Yue family boxing passed to his family and officers

No documented link for around 500 years

Ji Long Feng/Ji Jike most likely learnt yuechiaquan (yue family boxing) at Zhongnan Mountain in Shanxi. Ji then developed xinyiliuhe from observation of animal characteristics, his number 1 animal being the chicken/rooster. Ji passed on his art to Cao Ji Wu and Ma Xulie.

Ma Xulie began henan/muslim xinyiliuhe and passed this to his family and close initiates.

Cao Ji Wu is said to have taught Dai Long Bang.

Dai Long Bang modified the Xinyiliuhe with Dai family boxing techniques and possibly with other influence from the Niu family (who also have an ansestral link to Yue Fei through one of his generals). Dai created Dai style xinyi and passed on to his family and close initiates including some say Li Neng Ran

Li Neng Ran learnt Xinyi from the Dai family, most say from Dai Long Bang but may have been another member of the Dai clan. Have also heard that Li may have had contact with the Niu family also.

.

Ok, I would like to address a few things, but I am just giving my opinion, not stating anything as fact.

There is no connection regarding Yueh Fei, to me this is so weak, it is embarrassing.

Take for example, how could a style remain hidden for 500 years? this is impossible. Practitioners were/are proud of their arts and would like to at least made it clear that what they do (Xinyiliuhequan) is unique and worthy of recognition.

(this is copied from Jarek's site)

There is another story about Dai Longbang’s teacher that can be found in some books published during republic period (1911-1949). In these books Dai is said to have studied Yi Quan (Mind Boxing) with Niu Xixian in Kaifeng. Niu’s ancestor was Niu Gao, one of Yue Fei’s officers and disciples! True or not, the story brings the name of Yue Fei as the creator/exponent of Xinyi Quan back again.

From what I understand, what my teacher (Yan Long Chang) has told me and all of the other sources, I take fairly seriously, it was Li Zheng who taught Dai Long Bang and his sons.

The other myth is Cao Ji Wu. The name Cao Ji Wu is only mentioned of the fake 18th century Quan Pu (from what I remember, unless other fake texts quote this as well), which mentions this as well as quoting the story of Yueh Fei and Zhongnan mountains.

This office of Yueh Fei and his descendants claiming yet "another relevance to Yueh Fei" is as I have said before is simply ridiculous.

There is no documents of any kind related to Yueh Fei having attained any mastery of empty handed arts (yes, I know that as a soldier he of course was going to be well versed in some type of hand to hand combat, Shuai Chiao is very possible), but at that period warfare was more done with spears, bows and arrows and other type of projectiles and long range weaponry.

Since Yueh Fei became a national hero (before they demoted him, due to the fact that it was proven he was fighting another Chinese minority), everyone and his mother wants some type of affiliation to him.

There are many arts people claim as their ancestor (Ying Zhua Quan, Yueh Jia Quan, Yueh Jia San Shou, Xing Yi Quan, Xin Yi Quan, Baduanjin and also more).

Yes there are some similarites between the arts mentioned above and Xin Yi Quan, but so do a lot of other CMA (especially Tong Bei Quan) , there is only so many ways the body can move as well, so let us not jump to conclusions.

Jon.