How to use internal power in throwing?

[Fubo]

Throwing is throwing... in terms of body mechanics, it doesn't matter whether you are using so call internal force or whatever, everyone has to play by the same principles that make a hip throw, or shoulder throw, or pickup, etc... work... there may be variations on those throws, but the basic principles need to stay the same for them to work well.

Question for the SC guys:

I was playing with a basic hip throw a while back. A has his right leg in front of B's left leg and his right arm behind B's waist. So A can turn his hips away from B and drag B's waist to throw B over A's hip (so the direction of A's hip cirlce is right hip forward, left hip back). The typical counter is for B to sink and drive his left knee forward a little bit between A's legs. At this point, A can reverse the direction of his hip circle, borrowing B's force, and still make the throw (instead of throwing B around the outside of A's hip, A will circle around and come slightly under B's hip to throw B more over A's hip-- it's easier to do than to describe). However, if B is quick enough, instead of just driving his left knee forward he can instead circle his own hips in the same direction of A's circle but a little bit smaller, and dump A backwards instead of getting thrown. A of course could counter by changing his own circle to move inside of B's-- whoever can get the smallest circle at the right angle wins.

This is a fairly simple thing to do in a cooperative or semi-cooperative setting, and obviously much harder to do against a fully resisting opponent, but the method is in an isolated context typical of a lot of things that happen in taiji. Does SC use minute adjustments like this for it's borrowing? If so, how is the ability trained to do that in a "live" setting?

I do not understand how you can get a decent hip throw from what you described. From your description it sounds like the position of A's hips are not "deep" enough to achieve a controlled lift that is required for the hip throw to work. If A's right leg is in front of B's left leg, with A's right arm around B's back, then A's hip will mostly make contact with B's left hip, which will allow B to move out of the throw very easily as there isn't much of anything blocking his hip. To make a hip throw work well from to starting position you describe you really have to shoot you hips deep so your hips are "basically" parallel to their's... that way they will find it harder to get out.

I don't train SC, I train Judo, Taiji and Bagua, but to answer your question, they all make minute adjustments in relation to the direction of the opponents force. We train this in all sorts of cooperative to non-cooperative practices.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

if you have good core strength developed through the right methods and you are reasonably fit and in good condition have good posture and some understanding of the mechanics of your body, it's movement and it's movement in interaction with other forces etc, then you should be able to easily throw someone with optimal force and minimal energy output on your own behalf.

More than anything, it is mechanical structure that defines how much energy will be wasted in the throw.

With brute force, you can complete the throw, but it is better to use leverage and correct structural mechanics and expression of forces.

Use the same energy as you would use to simply walk.
This is possible with good structure and understanding the mechanics of a throw and that, in my opinion is how it has always been.

We work towards refining our ability to take the correct shape, to issue the correct forces and to minimize waste of energy and forces in a committed combative situation.

Yes, brute force can smash and rip it's way in, but you get tired quickly when doing things this way.

Refined motion and energy is a whole other ball of wax. I still refrain from the whole idea of internal/external because it is not a true assessment of what is really happening.

As you develop body awareness, everything starts working in a compound fashion and refinement of motion and motor skills takes place as well as second nature understanding and ability to move through time and space in an optimum manner.

[D_Glenn]

D Glenn,

I know more zhan zhuang postures in shuaijiao than in xingyi or taichi. 13 in fact--called the 13 generals / tai bao. And the body postures all develop different things which I've never developed in the shaolin, xingyi, or taiji postures I know. for instance, the black dragon playing on water and searching the bottom of the sea postures are single leg postures where you lean forward, to the side, down, backwards, developing balance than any single leg posture I've learned in shaolin or taiji.

the shenfa is different between the arts, yes. but if you're going to throw someone, it FORCES your shenfa to be closer to ideal. that's what I'm saying. and that shenfa is a unified body, just like taiji, xingyi, and bagua. and baji, etc etc.

shuaijiao is the raw material. it is inescapably the great-great-great-great-etc grandfather of all the chinese arts you guys learn. and as such, the "internal power" is already in there. any chinese martial art will have "internal power" when it is trained, and every chinese system will have the training somewhere, known by someone.

-Fong

I thought 13 taibao came from something else? Anyway it seems they're in everything now though I guess. I agree with a lot of what you say. After we ingrain our bagua shenfa we're told to study some shuai jiao, it's a great art. Some other bagua schools seem to have the same plan. I'm a firm believer in having to actually 'do' something in order to do it. So I'm not argueing that just doing bagua or something will make someone good at shuai jiao without doing it. I'm only saying that guys who I've met and felt who've done years of bagua and then some shuai jiao are infinitely more powerful at it then guys who've haven't gone that route. Which is due to the training regimen of bagua and what it does to the body. There probably isn't one ultimate factor- but the things in our practice that do leave one with more power are such things as circle turning for hours with static postures, whilst constantly twisting into the center with the waist. Drilling strikes and throws over and over into the air, where the movement originates at the waist. Different training= different results. How many hours a day do you hold the 13 taibao for sake of comparison ? And I mentioned zhanzhuang as the start because even at that stage bagua, taiji, and xingyi start to diverge on their own roads, yet a lot of the practices are still similar in some ways- xingyi -strikes into air, taiji- moving in air but they still end up with their their own shenfa in the end, so not really saying that standing in itself makes something internal, only that the shape of the postures develops a very particular shenfa. The mere fact that as you said the 13 taibao are different then anything you've felt before should give one a good idea that they're body is going to end up in a different place in the end. Right?


.

[Muirarama]

The first thing that occurred to me when you guys were talking about shenfa is that the flat-footed stepping in certain bagua styles is a different body method than the heel-toe step of other styles. As a result, the setups, executions, and follow throughs of various throws i.e. the techniques may be a little different. In my school we call this different "flavors" for different styles. Of course there is a huge overlap in the shenfa of different styles - we all agree you shouldn't bend over and grab your own ankles when fighting - but there are also differences. Maybe one more example: the momentum in your stepping may be more like a standing up wheel (spinning vertically like a car's wheel) or more like a lying flat wheel (frisbee or spinning top). Is this what people mean by body method i.e. shenfa?

On a different note: the original post was about internal "power", specifically. As far as I can tell, the meaning of internal power must be the ability to keep the abdomen sort of uniformly inflated in such a way that the force of pressing off the ground can be transmitted through the torso - literally a wave of momentum passing through your guts and fluids and sacs and such - without rupturing or damaging yourself. Since most of our legs can generate a lot more force than our organs can handle, this makes a man's internal organs the weak link, the bottle neck. Hence the need to develop internal power. As far as I know, you get it by strenghthening the fascia around the organs by consciously keeping the shape and consistency of your abdomen (don't let it fold on one side or cave in at a point or get really tense on one side and floppy on the other) while the periodic expansion of your lungs presses on your guts, and for more intensity maintain this while moving your body all around in your forms/drills. Extra credit for packing and patting.

From which arse have I pulled all this? Mantak Chia- Iron Shirt Chi Kung, and Xie PeiQi Yin Style BaGua LuoHan patting exercise dvd are special skills I'm trying to incorporate into my own kung fu, which is from Adam Hsu's school.

As for myself, trying at it for about 3 years, I'm sure that my striking power (and ability to strike while moving, adapt at the last minute, and maintain a root while striking) is a quantum leap beyond what I could ever do with 5+ years of TKD and kick boxing. I'm not an experienced thrower (or striker, when it comes to really fighting like in the alley like 'I'm gonna cut you up bitch' kind of fighting) but it seems like the inflating ability/uniformly dense abdominal ability I'm calling internal power has the obvious use of letting you press in against and buckle the other guy's crusty thin shell of a 6-pack. I think the internal organ practice I'm talking about is also what allows the famous low center of gravity in the abdomen. It's just being literally denser and more resilient than the other guy. So throwing or striking, doesn't seem like it makes a difference. As for the question of actually lifting and chucking a 90lbs dummy - everybody knows you've gotta lift with the legs and not the back. In my experience with tree stumps etc if you want to do anything besides lift straight up and stand there, like if you want to twist and project, then you can sink that force through the ground too but it may give a horrible sharp wrenching cramping in your guts if they aren't used to being wrung out like that.

In conclusion, internal power = strenghthening the fasciae around the internal organs => you can pass force through the abdomen without clenching up or hurting yourself.

[D_Glenn]

"The first thing that occurred to me when you guys were talking about shenfa is that the flat-footed stepping in certain bagua styles is a different body method than the heel-toe step of other styles. As a result, the setups, executions, and follow throughs of various throws i.e. the techniques may be a little different. In my school we call this different "flavors" for different styles. Of course there is a huge overlap in the shenfa of different styles - we all agree you shouldn't bend over and grab your own ankles when fighting - but there are also differences. Maybe one more example: the momentum in your stepping may be more like a standing up wheel (spinning vertically like a car's wheel) or more like a lying flat wheel (frisbee or spinning top). Is this what people mean by body method i.e. shenfa?"

Bagua has 8 different types of shenfa depending on body type and personal preference for strategy, each has a different stepping method so the way they step would be a different shenfa- imo as well. che lun bu (wheel stepping) like a car wheel is the idea of advancing and plowing through, the strategy is to be standing where the opponent used to be standing, different shenfa and strategy than the stepping flat strategy that steps around the opponent.


"On a different note: the original post was about internal "power", specifically. As far as I can tell, the meaning of internal power must be the ability to keep the abdomen sort of uniformly inflated in such a way that the force of pressing off the ground can be transmitted through the torso - literally a wave of momentum passing through your guts and fluids and sacs and such - without rupturing or damaging yourself. Since most of our legs can generate a lot more force than our organs can handle, this makes a man's internal organs the weak link, the bottle neck. Hence the need to develop internal power. As far as I know, you get it by strenghthening the fascia around the organs by consciously keeping the shape and consistency of your abdomen (don't let it fold on one side or cave in at a point or get really tense on one side and floppy on the other) while the periodic expansion of your lungs presses on your guts, and for more intensity maintain this while moving your body all around in your forms/drills. Extra credit for packing and patting.

From which arse have I pulled all this? Mantak Chia- Iron Shirt Chi Kung, and Xie PeiQi Yin Style BaGua LuoHan patting exercise dvd are special skills I'm trying to incorporate into my own kung fu, which is from Adam Hsu's school.

As for myself, trying at it for about 3 years, I'm sure that my striking power (and ability to strike while moving, adapt at the last minute, and maintain a root while striking) is a quantum leap beyond what I could ever do with 5+ years of TKD and kick boxing. I'm not an experienced thrower (or striker, when it comes to really fighting like in the alley like 'I'm gonna cut you up bitch' kind of fighting) but it seems like the inflating ability/uniformly dense abdominal ability I'm calling internal power has the obvious use of letting you press in against and buckle the other guy's crusty thin shell of a 6-pack. I think the internal organ practice I'm talking about is also what allows the famous low center of gravity in the abdomen. It's just being literally denser and more resilient than the other guy. So throwing or striking, doesn't seem like it makes a difference. As for the question of actually lifting and chucking a 90lbs dummy - everybody knows you've gotta lift with the legs and not the back. In my experience with tree stumps etc if you want to do anything besides lift straight up and stand there, like if you want to twist and project, then you can sink that force through the ground too but it may give a horrible sharp wrenching cramping in your guts if they aren't used to being wrung out like that.

In conclusion, internal power = strenghthening the fasciae around the internal organs => you can pass force through the abdomen without clenching up or hurting yourself."

Good post. And a good way to think about it. - Again starting with the zhanzhuang - in the beginning geting a very strong intent out to the tips of the fingers and grabbing the ground with the toes - "burns out the fat and replaces it with flesh". The abdomen breathing with intent on expanding out and contracting in around the belt meridian and from the dantian with focus on qihai on the front and mingmen on the back - also burns out the visceral fat around the organs and replaces with flesh, that combined with the drilling 'fali' movements packs all the organs together so they're nice and tight, impervious to jarring etc. ( on a sidenote- the standing, breathing, and fali practice does from the inside what the luohan patting does from the outside, not that its a useless practice just that they should achieve similar results.) I wouldn't say that is the be all end all to "internal" but a good part of it- with the use of intent especially with dantian area. Also brings up some stuff I'd mentioned in another thread - the upper and lower half of the body are separate and the beltmeridian is the separating point so there is some skill that needs to be learned to transfer power from the legs past the midpoint to the hands. The IMA work with mingmen point is a big part of that.

I've heard a good theory on the japanese throwing arts- they cheat the intent part by wearing the belt with the large knot tied tightly directly over qihai point. If you have a belt you can try it out and see the difference in the feeling, and/or what the feeling should be like, especially feel the difference in lifting something. Probably similar concept to a lifting belt.


.

[kreese]

D_Glenn wrote:

"Good post. And a good way to think about it. - Again starting with the zhanzhuang - in the beginning geting a very strong intent out to the tips of the fingers and grabbing the ground with the toes - "burns out the fat and replaces it with flesh". "

Really? Is that a bagua specific ZZ? You don't recommend just relaxing and worrying about gross structure at first? Just wondering.

"The abdomen breathing with intent on expanding out and contracting in around the belt meridian and from the dantian with focus on qihai on the front and mingmen on the back - also burns out the visceral fat around the organs and replaces with flesh, that combined with the drilling 'fali' movements packs all the organs together so they're nice and tight, impervious to jarring etc. ( on a sidenote- the standing, breathing, and fali practice does from the inside what the luohan patting does from the outside, not that its a useless practice just that they should achieve similar results.)"

Breathing will burn visceral fat around the organs? I can see fali helping, but just breathing? Are you talking about reverse or normal breathing? I find that eating less and moving a lot helps to burn visceral fat (went from 33" waist to 30-31" waist recently). Years of taiji and ZZ actually increased the size of my waist.

I like what you say about the internal organs being resistant to jarring. At very close grappling distance, a strong shaking force may not throw him, but it will rock his insides something uncomfortable. I rarely hear anyone talk about this aspect of fa jin/fa li.

"I wouldn't say that is the be all end all to "internal" but a good part of it- with the use of intent especially with dantian area. Also brings up some stuff I'd mentioned in another thread - the upper and lower half of the body are separate and the beltmeridian is the separating point so there is some skill that needs to be learned to transfer power from the legs past the midpoint to the hands. The IMA work with mingmen point is a big part of that."

Sounds good to me. Can you talk more about working with mingmen?

"I've heard a good theory on the japanese throwing arts- they cheat the intent part by wearing the belt with the large knot tied tightly directly over qihai point. If you have a belt you can try it out and see the difference in the feeling, and/or what the feeling should be like, especially feel the difference in lifting something. Probably similar concept to a lifting belt."

Great observation. Hara breathing was prescribed to me once for acute anxiety. My buddy wrapped a sash tightly around my waist so I could feel the abdomen and kidneys more clearly. It brings your attention back 'home'.

[I-mon]

I've heard a good theory on the japanese throwing arts- they cheat the intent part by wearing the belt with the large knot tied tightly directly over qihai point. If you have a belt you can try it out and see the difference in the feeling, and/or what the feeling should be like, especially feel the difference in lifting something. Probably similar concept to a lifting belt.

the hakama (those funky samurai pants the aikido and japanese jujutsu black belts wear) make a big difference, they have a thicked hardened bit that sticks up and hugs the lower back, supporting mingmen, and then the thick belt is tied supporting qihai at the front, AND the pants are big and baggy at the bottom so the even change the feeling of the body shape, making it all much better supported and less top-heavy.

[Bodywork]

I wouldn't put too much stock in any notion of belts and Hakamas. I've not only been wearing them for years, I play with others who have as well. Sorry...not impressed.
I hate my hakama and wear it when I have to. Though I am extremely conversant in grappling with a gi-I hate that too. I prefer to train in sweats, and occasionally in street clothes, as that is what I will be wearing when the shit hits the fan. Not double stitched thick canvas keikogi.

No back panel (soft or hard), no knot in a belt, nothing… will aid you in training your intent but... TRAINING your intent!!!

As time goes on, I am ever more convinced that the practitioners of the Japanese and Chinese arts are losing the ideas of internal, and opting for waza. No hakama or belt will fix that, or offer the slightest aid to the higher levels of training. Not one wit.

[I-mon]

ok i shouldn't have said they make a big difference, just a noticeable difference, in the feeling of body shape.

[D_Glenn]

Kreese, "Really? Is that a bagua specific ZZ? You don't recommend just relaxing and worrying about gross structure at first? Just wondering."

I don't know. I don't think so. Intent has a connection with the eyes. Most of the ZZ I've seen looks at the hands. Structure of the postures to me is done more like the standing poses in yoga- like the tree and warrior poses- at least the similar activation of areas/groups. Intent to the extremities clears out blockage and stagnation, so the greater the intent the faster the process, one is already standing for a long time, that practice should be optimal not wasted. "the way you cheat your practice is the way it cheats you.". Some qigong is about 'gathering' with a different intent but for the most part I think the martial ZZ is done with strong outward intent.

"Breathing will burn visceral fat around the organs? I can see fali helping, but just breathing? Are you talking about reverse or normal breathing? I find that eating less and moving a lot helps to burn visceral fat (went from 33" waist to 30-31" waist recently). Years of taiji and ZZ actually increased the size of my waist."

I said 'abdomen breathing' but what I meant was the expansion outward of the abdomen from the dantian while contracting inward from the surrounding area, particularly the area of the belt meridian and lifting huiyan. Breathing is what it is inside of that. I don't know what these terms mean to you but I would say 99% of the time when striking/fali it is like reverse breathing- air comes out but it makes a low gutteral 'hen' sound. 1% of the time when fali it is like abdominal breathing and a loud 'ha' sound is made.

If already skinny than I would imagine it would just be a build-up of flesh surrounding the organs. From my experiences that dantian area is nothing like a beer belly actually hard as a rock, and ideally if doing the proper contracting of belt meridian not really protuding much further out than the pubic bone. Aslo contracting in is key to not getting a hernia.

The mingmen thing is the tucking the sacrum- mingmen open, untucking the sacrum- mingmen closed. Dantian in between qihai and mingmen - sacrum tucks- jarrs the organs/dantian- mingmen is open- the path follows the du meridian up and out to the arms.

I've heard a good theory on the japanese throwing arts- they cheat the intent part by wearing the belt with the large knot tied tightly directly over qihai point. If you have a belt you can try it out and see the difference in the feeling, and/or what the feeling should be like, especially feel the difference in lifting something. Probably similar concept to a lifting belt.

.

The key word above is cheat the intent. As in 'cheating' themselves. Its like a crutch. Again "the way you cheat your practice is the way it cheats you.".
Everything we need to practice in our Chinese style is inside our own body, no outside implements, gear, or contraptions. Although it is cool to have the dadao to throw around every once in a while.


.

[kreese]

Thanks for taking my questions in the right spirit.

I am sort of at odds right now about how much 'intent' to use when doing standing postures. I find that too much can lead to a sort of mental tension, but it does seem to increase power. Too little, and I am wasting my time.

re: abdomen. Whether it was flesh or fat, I was surprised I'd ever see my waist get smaller. The subcutaneous fat is about the same, but my pants are huge now. I know, I know. 33", big deal. But that's due to the freakin' tolerance Americans have developed to fat people. Also, biscuits & gravy are delicious after drinking...

Thanks, man.