Hebei Snake and Pi considerations

[Aged Tiger]

OK, first post in a long while, so flame away!

This is a primarily a Hebei question, but I welcome Shangxi and others to throw in. As I was training yesterday with a few students, this question was brought up and I hadn't thought about it much.

How many of you consider Snake to be like an application polar opposite to Pi. i.e. Pi strikes higher and down, as opposed to lower and up. Thoughts?

Also, do any of you lock up the shoulder and push the opposite opponents arm when applying snake, or generally use a pulling action?

Thanks for the input,
Chas

[JAB]

I know snake as a throw, not a strike.
Jake

[mixjourneyman]

Pi can go up too.

[GrahamB]

I know 'Snake' (by which I think you mean the down then upward strike bit everyone calls 'Snake') primeraly as a locking/grappling method (locking their arm against your body), followed by a strike, not a throw. You can do it as a throw away, but I don't like that personally - the groin strike method seems more effective.

And yep, the upward strike does contain a lot of Pi jin.

Shi Xing grappling methods should have the feel of this:

[Felipe Bidó]

Just a general overview

The intention of Snake (Which is what makes a snake form the 'snake' and not a simple Tiao) is in the twisting and coiling of the arm, shoulder, and whole body with it. When the arm comes down making his way and going back out, the force is led by the shoulder, which makes the form very suitable for a throw, especially if you grab the guy's leg and use it as leverage.

To make the snake form work as an armlock, the shoulder has to move to the front, to be aided by the torso, much like a heng quan armlock. Just a tiny shift in direction and application of force.

Classical chinese terms make the difference clear. "White Snake Seeping Through the Grass" is the throw, while "White Snake Spitting out its tongue" is the strike, or a piercing palm to the throat.

Also, do any of you lock up the shoulder and push the opposite opponents arm when applying snake, or generally use a pulling action?

When using snake the focus should be in keeping their arm in a position to enter a small gap using the coiling of your arm, instead of pulling them towards you.

[Josealb]

Not that much Pi jing. Or it depends....Do you want to flick a bit, go thru, or shock?

[nianfong]

the chicken's tiao is more like an inverted pi in that sense I think. the snake's motions I find to be more suitable for grappling. the strike motion is usually more piercing with zhuan jin.

-Fong

[Aged Tiger]

Thanks guys for the great replies, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Felipe,

Thanks for the detail, that does make sense. You are Shangxi correct?

Naifong,

Exactly, my teacher always said to look for chicken's relationship to Pi.

Jab,
Only if you're upside down..... think about it...

GrahamB,

Is that a general, Hebei, your interpretation, your teacher. etc. just curious, since I'm trying to get a just of the variety of thoughts.

P.S. Is that you left arm in the picture,...... or something else..... nevermind, I don't need to know....

Good insights from all!

Thanks again guys
Chas

[nianfong]

nope, felipe and jose are both hebei, under the same teacher.

yeah, chicken and pi are much more closely tied together. I think that's one reason why they're always talking about "golden roosters" etc etc.

[Felipe Bidó]

Tiger

My teacher trained in both branches, but he had more Hebei teachers than Shanxi teachers. Like Tom said once, you could say I'm 'a hybrid'

[nianfong]

haha oh yeah? I didn't know that man. well anyway, your motions look more hebei style to me.

[Aged Tiger]

Tiger

My teacher trained in both branches, but he had more Hebei teachers than Shanxi teachers. Like Tom said once, you could say I'm 'a hybrid'

Felipe,

That's what made me ask. From the clips I've seen of ya, you do appear to have some Shangxi in there.

So you could be a sort of "Hebxi" cyborg!

Chas

[JAB]

How exactly does Pi strike up, when the nature of the energy is splitting / downward?
Jake

[GrahamB]

GrahamB,

Is that a general, Hebei, your interpretation, your teacher. etc. just curious, since I'm trying to get a just of the variety of thoughts.

P.S. Is that you left arm in the picture,...... or something else..... nevermind, I don't need to know....

Good insights from all!

Thanks again guys
Chas

Thanks Chas!

I think the usual version of snake you see in Hebei looks similar to this:



Nothing wrong with that if it floats your boat. I like a little more bite in my snake, personally. Our snake looks/feels a lot more like this Xin Yi version (Henan?) even though we are Hebei:



Except we don't grab our lead foot with the hand - we put it on the floor. The hand goes way low down near it though. The lock I was talking about is nothing like what Felipe is describing. Pic of the boa is to try and get the feeling of how the lock goes on - like your arm is being crushed by a constrictor. It's hard to 'get', but if you can get it on it's scary. First time my teacher did it to me I thought he'd broken my arm! I showed it to Bruce when we met up - I think he liked it

Other bits of our snake look like this:



All our lineages pass through Gou Yun Shen so we're Hebei. Names like Shanxi, Hebei, Xin Yi, XingYi are all just labels. It's all the same art to me. Every teacher has a different expression, and that's the way it should be. No need to get all uptight about who has the 'oldest' or the real (tm).

best,
G

[Joe L.]

How exactly does Pi strike up, when the nature of the energy is splitting / downward?
Jake

+1.

I've always wondered about this, actually. Is it more that pi isn't always so much about downward as it is about splitting, as in you can 'split' upwards as well?