Internal strength research

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Internal strength research

Postby ors on Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:55 am

According to the topics of the last few weeks, I thought I will show you some interesting pictures...
There is an interesting research in Japan nowadays, in which sport scientists try to understand the differences of the "traditional way of movement". They found that this kind of movement still alive in the famous traditional Japanese theatre, the Noh. So they exchange ideas with some well known Noh players, and researched the body movements they have. They found, that these guys use some so called "inner muscles" much more, than an average sportsman.
Nowadays they try to incorporate the training of these inner muscles to the different sport-training methods. As I know they have some results with baseball players.

To tell the truth, these ideas came to me from a friend of mine, and I don't know too much about the whole process, but I have found very, very interesting a picture what was in a book about Noh. This picture shows those so called inner muscles, in a computer graphic.

Quite interesting (according to master He, with whom I have changed letters about this subject) that they use the same characters for "inner muscle", than the Chinese for nei jin, inner strength...

Here is the picture:

Image
Örs
Last edited by ors on Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
ors
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Re: Internal strength research

Postby Bhassler on Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:45 am

If you really want to look deeply into this, I would recommend you start with the book "Anatomy Trains." The author escapes me, but it's a good place to start as far as a technical basis for understanding things like chansijin, etc. from a biomechanical context.
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
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Re: Internal strength research

Postby Iskendar on Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:47 pm

Tom wrote:http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Trains-My ... 876&sr=8-1

Tom Myers does a very clear, engaging job of illustrating myofascial dynamics. This is a good sourcebook when considering the terms "internal strength," "internal connection," etc.


Very interesting book. Not necessarily useful for your training (if someone got anything out of it in that regard, please let me know), but very helpful in understanding what this internal strength weirdness is all about. Hell, even if it just indicates that this stuff is real, physical, and not some figment of the imagination of the woozyhead cheehugger contingent, it's worth its price already!
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Re: Internal strength research

Postby Sprint on Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:22 am

[quote="ors"]According to the topics of the last few weeks, I thought I will show you some interesting pictures...
There is an interesting research in Japan nowadays, in which sport scientists try to understand the differences of the "traditional way of movement". They found that this kind of movement still alive in the famous traditional Japanese theatre, the Noh. So they exchange ideas with some well known Noh players, and researched the body movements they have. They found, that these guys use some so called "inner muscles" much more, than an average sportsman.
Nowadays they try to incorporate the training of these inner muscles to the different sport-training methods. As I know they have some results with baseball players.

To tell the truth, these ideas came to me from a friend of mine, and I don't know too much about the whole process, but I have found very, very interesting a picture what was in a book about Noh. This picture shows those so called inner muscles, in a computer graphic.

Quite interesting (according to master He, with whom I have changed letters about this subject) that they use the same characters for "inner muscle", than the Chinese for nei jin, inner strength...

Here is the picture:

Image
Örs[/quote

Sometimes this forum throws up some real gems, and this is one of them in my opinion. I don't say that those are the exact muscles used in zhan zhuang because there are others, but the similarity is quite amazing. I'd love to get a translation of how they specifically develop those muscles.
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Re: Internal strength research

Postby ors on Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:53 am

Thank you Sprint!

I have found that book amazing as well. How they develop those muscles? Well, there is nothing interesting in that.... It is not so shocking for an IMA guy, especially for a yiquan guy, I think.... With proper structural alignment. Continously good structure. That is the KEY! ;D ;D ;D
The teacher continuously checking the students structure for a time, when the student can himself feel the differences alone, just like in IMA.
If you asked me, how they developed the sportsmen's inner muscles, I couldn't answer your question truly. As I know, the Noh teachers continouously checked their postures... ;)
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Re: Internal strength research

Postby circle_walker on Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:38 pm

I've been reading John Painter's "Combat Baguazhang" Nine Dragons System, and there was a very interesting chapter on
"Yi Zhang", of "Yi Xin Gong Quan", that goes into some pretty good detail on practice, and some comparisons to Yi Quan. There is also a chapter on Dao Yin practice(I just saw a book being advertised on a different thread).
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Re: Internal strength research

Postby Franklin on Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:37 pm

from the picture it seems that most of the "inner" muscles seem to be trained in traditional exercises for CMA
reverse breathing helps train the intercostals and torso muscles -
and while preforming the reverse breathing- pulling up on the pelvic floor helps to train the paos (spelling)

also some of the stepping exercises help to train the pelvic floor and paos
and the wu style iron body qi gong- golden turtle posture- just by making the posture seems to activate the pelvic floor and paos just by the physical position



i have to check out anatomy trains when i get some $$- but i looked at it some years ago when a friend had it and if i remember correctly it was correlating the tendo-muscular meridians of acupuncture with some sort of movement theory-
while these meridians are usefull in treating some physical problems and help with the theory of how the energy meridians connect with the body, and how disease enters- i am not clear on how they relate to enhancing movement performance besides the fact that they are muscular
if anyone could give the theory in a nut shell or set me straight that would be great




another book that is really good that i have in my library is
Anatomy of Breathing
http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Breathing-Blandine-Calais-Germain/dp/0939616556/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213406815&sr=8-1

it breaks down the anatomy of breathing very detailed and how to train different types of breath
lots of good explanations and text and some awesome graphics for people who need to see how everything is working
even goes into how to breath with only part of the diaphram- thereby raising and lovering certain internal organs ;)


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Re: Internal strength research

Postby fuga on Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:37 pm

Franklin,

That book looks great. Thanks for the recommendation.

-pete
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Re: Internal strength research

Postby jjy5016 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:49 am

circle_walker wrote:I've been reading John Painter's "Combat Baguazhang" Nine Dragons System, and there was a very interesting chapter on
"Yi Zhang", of "Yi Xin Gong Quan", that goes into some pretty good detail on practice, and some comparisons to Yi Quan.


This could be because he learned zhan zhuang from Henry Look.

All the books, pictures and descriptions of muscles that come into play when doing this and doing
that are'nt worth their weight in shit if the practice(s) aren't being done right. I don't see
what it does for someone's practice to know that muscle "a" is involved in this and muscle "b" is involved in that. Other than taking time away from practice it really doesn't seem like anything other than an attempt to find a shortcut to success.

There are no shortcuts. What good is knowing what muscles are involved in silk reeling if one can't do it right? It's like being able to design an engine for a cadillac but not having arms and legs with which to drive the car. Spend less time reading and more time practicing.
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Re: Internal strength research

Postby Sprint on Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:42 am

Hey Franklin

I think the muscles you are referring to are the psoas muscles. I hear what you are saying about CMA exercises,what what got my curiosity was whether all those muscles (in the picture) are trained simultaneously as they are in zhan zhuang or separately. This is kind of the point of whole body power for me that you train a group of muscles all together at the same time to work together as a unit. What the picture also illustrates brilliantly (by omission) is that all the other body muscles are relaxed or not in use. Kind of like the steel in cotton analogy. Anyway my two pennies.
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Re: Internal strength research

Postby Bhassler on Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:36 am

Re: the psoas
The psoas is a pretty important structural muscle, and it's important to train it. It's also important to try a differentiate it from other muscles in and around the pelvic floor. Lots of people develop a very strong psoas, which is good, but it becomes too active, which inhibits movement around the low back, hips, and pelvis, which is clearly not what we want for MA.

Re: Anatomy trains and reading in general
I'll do research like this in part because it interests me, and in part because it helps to clarify or suggest variations for things I'm already feeling in my own practice. If you're teaching, it also offers different approaches for communicating one's experiences, and that variety (much like in MA) is often what separates the superior practitioner from the merely adequate. Of course, just knowing the name of a muscle or how it attaches are not particularly useful, but if you actually feel your psoas working (for instance) and then look at a picture of how it attaches, the shape of the muscle, and what's next to it, it can clarify the sensation and give pointers for where you might direct your attention to deepen your understanding of what you just felt.
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
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