Quick language question: Laoshi vs. Sifu

[nianfong]

in taiwan we call all martial arts teachers in the third-person as "(last name)-laoshi" So I would refer to chen xiao wang as "chen-laoshi". old school, we'd call them "(last name)-shifu", so chen xiao wang would be 陳師傅

I refer to my teacher, dr. weng, as just "laoshi", which is how i've referred to all my teachers in taiwan, and any teacher's I've learned from in a seminar, etc. you use that as a form of address instead of the english word "you", 你 in chinese.

if we did the whole disciple ceremony thing (which my teacher doesn't), I'd call him just plain"shi-fu" 師父. like I'd address my father as just plain "dad".

and seriously, simplified chinese hurts my eyes, it's so damn ugly. but it looks fine when handwritten cuz it looks like grass script then. and FWIW 國語 is much more educated sounding, and refers to the language as a whole, while 普通話 sounds like someone with a barely elementary school education is speaking, and only refers to spoken language.

[meeks]

I'm agreeing with everything Omar has touched on throughout this whole post. The only time I had a chinese instructor NOT want to be called shifu (or sifu in cantonese) was with Dr. Yuan Shaoliang - I asked him "should I call you shifu?" and he simply said "Doctor is better" - basically because he was a bit cagey about strangers knowing that he did gong fu and he felt Doctor was a more difficult title to obtain, so it was 'a higher status'.

However my experience has been that 师傅/shi1fu* is used far more often by Northerners to address taxi drivers, craftsmen and the like.

yes - and in my experience in China, you can use 'shifu' on ANYONE who is older than you as a sign of respect that they have an accomplished skill in their life - usually if they were older than you. A few of my neighbors were 'Fu Shifu' (Fu being his last name) and 'Wu Shifu' - despite the fact they were just regular dudes - it was just respectful. In fact, a few people referred to me as 'Mi Shifu' now and then (derived from my last name 'Meikle' - MEE-kl). I could have used 'Lao Fu' or 'Lao Wu' (old wu) as a term of endearment as well, and with other people I used that term instead.

Shifu can be any proprietor of a business, it can be the old man selling fruits from a cart for a mere $30 USD a month. When in doubt, just call them Shifu (not the 'fu' as in instructor as pointed earlier) - you can't go wrong with showing a little respect to strangers.
The only guys I know asking to be called 'master' are the contemporary wushu guys with no one to challenge their students. Oddly enough some of those were only comfortable being called 'coach' just over 10 years ago.

You don't need a ceremony to be a disciple. Some guys like that sort of formality, but with our shifu he just said "you're my disciple - practise 24-7. don't let me down" and referred to you as a disciple to everyone he spoke with. When someone from a different school came to check us out he'd select one of his disciples (it's funny for me to use that term - we always just referred to ourselves as 'students') to challenge them - never a regular student.

Regular students were just 'xue sheng' (students). In fact, our shifu had a couple guys called 'tu di' (disciple) and none of them needed a ceremony. Our instructor was really not into that sort of thing though. Other shifus I've had would make me wait for them to sip their tea first, or taste their food first, before we were 'allowed' to commence drinking/eating. My last shifu, when I waited for him to drink or eat the first week I met him simply said "we all train together - we're family. Don't worry about that courtesy - eat!" and from that day forward we didn't need to worry about it, and it chastise you if you were apprehensive about casualness at the lunch/dinner table. It was always the new guys that we had to say "don't worry - just drink it." and they'd carefully sip their tea while Yang Shifu was talking about bagua at the lunch table.

When I first met Yang Shifu I made the mistake of referring to his wife as 'ni de tai tai' (your wife) - that was a bit offensive to him, but I didn't know any better. From that day forward it was always 'shi mu' (no need to use a last name). But a few people asked him 'should I call you master?' and it was always 'no' - just shifu. But shifu was also a title he had earned. One time someone called his house (apparently a wrong number) and asked who he was - his response was "wo shi Yang Shifu" (I am instructor Yang). So it was apparently ok to address himself that way as well.

I would never call a gong fu instructor 'lao shi' - it could imply your relationship is distant. I remember Yang Shifu always saying 'bu ting ba ba mei wen ti, bu ting shi fu...bu ke si yi....'
roughly means "don't listen to what your father says, no problem. don't listen to what your instructor tells you to do, no f-ing way..." which implied the relationship between you and your shifu superceded that of your parents - which is why it's written as 师父

[bailewen]

Fong,

You know, come to think of it, people actually hardly ever call it 普通话 and I agree, it sounds so . . . .普通 to call it that (ie. plain and ordinary) which is probably why most people here actually just say "han yu" 汉语 which means "The language of the Han people". I just brought up the term putonghua to make the point about it being the official language of the land.

[Daniel]

Good post, Meeks. Thanks.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

hahaha Meek's sifu was old school.

[taiwandeutscher]

hahaha Meek's sifu was old school.

Really old school, and it seems to me that times are changing in greater China quicker than anywhere else, lol.

[Ian]

So there really isn't much of a consensus.

Shifu, laoshi, xiansheng, yishi etc... it's hard to know what to call someone until you've met them in person.

Kinda off topic, but I don't feel comfortable with discipleship. Not being able to roll with or test your master, not being able to question his methods, not being able to freely visit other schools and train with other teachers... doesn't jibe with me at all.

[johnwang]

I have never used the word "Sifu" in my life. The only word that I have used is "Laoshi". I'll call my own teacher "Laoshi" (without the last name) and other teachers as "Li Laoshi", "Liu Laoshi", "Wang Laoshi". At least that was the way used in Taiwan.

[Michael]

Kinda off topic, but I don't feel comfortable with discipleship. Not being able to roll with or test your master, not being able to question his methods, not being able to freely visit other schools and train with other teachers... doesn't jibe with me at all.

Must mean you're not internal enough yet.

[Wuyizidi]

China is a very big country with very distinct regional cultures, each with its own deeply-rooted traditions, so what is a correct and respectable in one region may not be so for another. So I will note the region in my response. It's really not that complicated:

先生: xian sheng. For all regions: in China this is the traditional address for teacher. This is only for teachers in academia, not appropriate to use for someone in a 'lower' level (In Old China commoners are classified into 4 levels: shi [intellectuals], farmers, artisans, merchants). Unlike Japan, we don't have a special class for soldiers/warriors, as in China they are traditionally recruited from farmer class, therefore of same status. As martial art is regarded a low level job roughly equivalent in status to farmer/artisans, martial art teachers cannot be called xian sheng, unless they are also scholars like Wu Yuxian or Li Yiyu. In which case they would certainly prefer Xian Sheng over Shi fu.

In academia we don't really have the whole disciple/student distinction. As the kind of knowledge imparted here generally deal with larger questions in life, fields like philosophy, literature, history, economics, etc. There are no secrets that, once known, will put your teacher or your rivals out of business.

Since the fall of Qing Dynasty, xian sheng has been largely demoted to mean 'mister'. Japanese pronounce it sensei, today the Japanese still use this to address teachers in academia, doctors, and martial art instructors.


师父: shi (teacher) fu (father): teachers in the artisan class are called shi fu. This is where all the traditions associated with discipleship comes in. Since we're talking about a set of manual skills used in a trade here, secrets are very important. In this kind of environment, secrets can only be taught to people you can trust 100% like your son. Hence all the traditions. In academia no one would expect the only disciple to take his impoverished, sick literature professor into his home, respect him like his own father, and take care until his death. In a trade, whether it's Beijing Opera or martial art, this level of expectation exists, because the relationship between teacher and disciple has to be unusually close. In the old days, unless you're a disciple, you would never get to learn anything important.

老师: lao shi (old teacher): actually lao doesn't always mean old, it could mean rank. For example, when we say lao da, lao er, we don't mean old one, old two, it's number one, number two. The term laoshi became popular in late Qing Dynasty, when modern education reform started. Before that, all education are private. Now, patterned after Western systems, learning become systematic, standardized. Of course here modern means new, better. Teachers in modern school systems are called laoshi (at least in the north). So laoshi is now the most highly respected title for teachers in academia, whereas xian sheng began to sound quaint, old fashioned. In people's mind, Xian Sheng seemed to be associated with old, out-dated knowledge, like Confucian classics.

In mainland China today, people in academia or research regularly refer to older colleagues as laoshi. For example, my mom's colleagues (both from mainland and Taiwan) at a large U.S pharmaceutical company call her He Laoshi, even though she never taught. There might be many nuances in here us outsiders don't know about. Because she has a PhD, which on the mainland you must have to be associate professor or full professor. I'm not sure if I ever heard anyone with masters degree being referred to as laoshi...

So during this time, late Qing Dynasty, early Republic era, many of the old ideas and traditions are being challenged by progressive Western ideas. Old class distinctions were falling away. Many martial art teachers in Northern China, now wanting more respect, started using the term Laoshi instead of 师父. You can see written record of this in many Wuxia novels of that era. In fact, it became fashionable for martial art teachers to wear spectacles (like real scholars who spent too much time reading under poor lighting), even though there is nothing wrong with their eyesight. So it's not surprising John Wang never called his shuai jiao teacher anything but laoshi.

师傅: shi fu - master craftsman, experienced worker, which of course means he's qualified to teach. In Northern China at least, 师傅 is not used to address one's martial art teacher. In modern society, 师父, and its associated disciple concepts are largely irrelevant. So in Northern China today, 师父 is rarely used. But 师傅 is. For example, 大师傅 - big shifu, means Master Cook. In everyday usage it's a respectful term for any blue-collar worker: from carpenter to bus driver, etc.


Like Nian Fong said, there are a lot of etiquette involved. For example, before I became a disciple, I would call my teacher Zhang laoshi. Now it's just laoshi. It cannot be Zhang laoshi (this would not be a problem in an academic setting). Even if I am disciple of many teachers, when alone, I would address each as just 'laoshi', and only use 'XXX laoshi' if more than one is present...

Discipleship is a very large, complicated issue. Today it's not that serious. So that would explain Meek's example about informality. In the old days, you must follow each step of the elaborate ceremony down to the letter. If you deviate even one bit, others can claim you're not a real disciple. For example, sometimes a teacher don't really want to take someone as disciple, but doing it out of pressure (for example student is a major warlord like Li Jinglin), he'll skip or fudge a step or two, which would signal the truth to fellow cognoscenti. Or if you didn't invite all the important (and potentially important) people in the group, that could be disaster. Because asked to vouch for you, they could say "who? Is he a disciple? I don't know. I've never been invited to such a person's discipleship ceremony."

Wuyizidi

[johnwang]

students was simultaneously studying Shaolin from another school and TJQ from him.

A student has 2 teachers, a SC teacher and a Taiji teacher. His SC teacher told him that "elephant nose embracing (squeeze someone's nuts and then pick him up)" can be used to pick anybody on this planet off the gound. His Taiji teacher told him that if you train Taiji long enough, nobody on this planet will be able to uproot you. Instead of the SC teacher and the Taiji teacher have a match to prove their point, the SC teacher told his student that he can only have one teacher instead of 2 at the same time.

[middleway]

not exactly a resposne to the OP but I think it also depends on the circumstance.. When I am alone with Matt's teacher I call him Paul... when talking to him in front of his students I call him Sifu.. in both contexts the respect is still there, but some of his students don;t yet understand it is a state rather than a title..

That post is spot on. Thanks Yusuf.

[johnwang]

Laoshi - old and knowledgable.
Sifu - knowledgable and treat students as his ow son.

If you treat your teacher as your own father (willing to die for him) but your teacher doesn't treat you as his own son (hiding secret from you and only save for his own son), when you call him Sifu, you may just use your hot face to touch his cold ass.

A teacher only deserved others to call him Sifu when his students:

- lost their job, he'll let them to stay in his house and feed them.
- get sick and no money to pay their medical bill, he'll pay their bills for them.
- are on the run from law, he will give them a bundle of cash.
- are in jail, he will break the jail and let them out.
- ...

A father will do all those things for his own son. If your teacher is not willing to do that for you, calling him Laoshi is good enough IMO.

[Michael]

students was simultaneously studying Shaolin from another school and TJQ from him.

A student has 2 teachers, a SC teacher and a Taiji teacher. His SC teacher told him that "elephant nose embracing (squeeze someone's nuts and then pick him up)" can be used to pick anybody on this planet off the gound. His Taiji teacher told him that if you train Taiji long enough, nobody on this planet will be able to uproot you. Instead of the SC teacher and the Taiji teacher have a match to prove their point, the SC teacher told his student that he can only have one teacher instead of 2 at the same time.

I notice you very diplomatically say it is the SC teacher who restricted his student, but we might suspect what you think about TJQ "Sifu Masters", ha-ha-ha . Anyway, in the IMA once you have cleaned your Sifu's bathroom for 100 times, he will finally teach you how to withdraw your elephant nose into your lower chakra so even an SC guy can not lift you up.

I can't find it with youtube blocked, but there's a Mind Body & Kick Ass Moves with Hong Kong Southern Praying Mantis Grandmaster Ip Chee Keung withdrawing his junk and letting Chris Crudell kick him full on between the legs.

[bailewen]

What the hell Michael? You still having troube with youtube? There have been so many workarounds posted here. Just get off your ass and pick one. My current favorite is called UltraVPN. It's a free virtual private network. You need to register and activate through email so you can create a username and password but once it's up and running, it gives you a French IP address and youtube is back. Fr33gate is great too but it's banned by the PRC. It's not as reliable as UltraVPN but it works well and it requires no registration. Also, fr33gate can be run off a USB drive so you could take it with you to an internet bar as it does not require installation. It's small enough I could send it in an email attachment. '

Get with the program already.