Xingyiquan of the Chinese army reviewed

[Pandrews1982]

I think the point is that it is simplified so that it can be used with minimal training and understanding. Why do you need an opening posture if you are on patrol with your army regiment and suddenly have to engage the enemy? Its the differnce between a martial art and real practical application - he has taken what he knows will work and shed the rest, its no longer a complete art but rather a subset or one tool taken out of the Xing yi toolbox so to say, if you need to knock in a nail you don't get out a screwdriver, if you want to fight close quarters with your weapon (a rifle and bayonet) you don't learn monkey double jian or something crazy like that. I have no problem with that kind of thinking, I think its useful and common sense IMO. I think this is similar to what Chris M was talking about in his bagua combatives thread, not teaching bagua as an art but only those aspects which are applicable to what he needs.

I agree with the lack of illustrations but many of the manuals from the time are similar in their lack of detail, see the translation of Li Cun Yi's book by J Crandall or the Jin Yunting book on Hebei xing yi, line drawn illustrations, little clarity, poetic and lacking in practical and understandable information. Also I have the translation of sun lu tang's xing yi book (edited by Dan Miller is it?) and i find it almost worthless for following the movements the photos are static postures with no indication of the direction of movement and the descriptions of the transitions in the text are not clear. unless you already have a grounding in the art a manual is showing then its always going to be difficult to work out all the details.

I think that for what it tries to do the book is fine, sure there might be works better suited for what you specifically want to do as a Xing yi practitioner or martial artist.

[mrtoes]

Scott Phillips went to school, but alas, he learned nothing despite spending a long time there.
These lives serve as sign posts people.

sign posts on your own path.

Teaching for 17 years, practising up to 8 hours a day, with teachers like BKF - Where did it go? Maybe he's just not doing himself justice with his videos and you need to touch hands, I dunno...

I feel sad and a bit confused

[kshurika]

I didn't like the book either, because it didn't have anything that would make my Xing Yi better. But, I can always practice for that. And, yes, the review was a hatchet job.

But, GrahamB, I REALLY wish you hadn't posted that video. Now, when I practice, I just have the mantra "You have to keep shaking... You HAVE to keep shaking" going through my head over and over and over and over.......

Oh well, at least it replaces the "Bow to your sensei; BOW to your sensei!" that's been there for years.

[GrahamB]

But you have to SHAKE! You HAVE TO! Otherwise you have no PURE INTERNAL POWER!

Don't cha no anyting?

[cerebus]

I liked Rovere's book. I bought the original edition when it came out, now I have the new edition. The major difference is that he includes the original photos of Jiang Rong Qiao demonstrating the techniques in the new edition. I like old martial arts manuals and I like old hand to hand combat manuals. This book was both...

[blindsage]

I'm pretty sure the African Bagua clip is not a joke. This guy is ridiculous. He says in the clip that Dong Hai Chuan is not the founder of Bagua, the history just doesn't support it, and goes into a whole monologue about the esoteric dance origins of Bagua. WTF? For those who question his sincerity, he also states on his website description of Bagua that "It is a purely internal art which has its origins in ritual dance." In regards to Xing Yi he says "I have studied both styles but I mainly teach Six Harmonies because it’s more fun to do! It uses a lot of wild low stepping patterns and rhythms. It also imitates the movements and minds of the various animals in more theatrically obvious ways. Read his bio, he's about performance.... well that and apparently showing the rest of us how we don't really understand IMA, while smiling and wishing us a happy day.

[everything]

I dunno the guy at all, but my friend who has touched hands (rolled) with bjj/mma fighter Ricardo Almeida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Almeida) said the reviewer has real skills and also has quite a sense of humor. Not defending the book or the reviewer - but I/you can't judge his actual IMA skills except through touching hands, albeit the vids and posts have some, er, different, presentation. Then again, I am also just a dog on the Internet. So who knows...

[Andy_S]

The African Bagua vid was a response to one of BT's vids - so, safe to say, was a joke. Trouble is, his serious vid is almost equally silly. The guy just can't help himself - he is manic.

[xingyijuan]

AFAIK, he actually believes in his theory about African culture and Bagua connection. I get this from some of the comments he has left on my teacher's videos. He may have joked in his response to BT, but his thoughts are no joke. They are though, IMO, laughing matter.

[bigphatwong]

Oh Goodie!


*puts bag of Pop Secret in microwave*

[everything]

apparently people really want some zaniness because they're asking for mike strong and stephen yan (dunno anything about those guys) so let the funny arguments ensue...

[Chris Fleming]

Pop corn and beer ready but I don't expect much from this. These guys who make clips about "real internal power" or whatnot never fight but are always quick to say why their opinion about fighting still matters.

[Scott P. Phillips]

Thank you for all the love.
I love a good fight.
And I have poured myself a shot of whiskey.

First off let me say how much I admire the high level of discourse you have going here. People are making statements and backing them up with references and reasoned experience.

For me, this is a moral fight. Be forewarned, if you publish a book about Chinese martial arts history and you don't know what you are talking about, expect to feel the cold steel of my typepad.
Tom, Josh and a few others raised the idea that perhaps Rovere was not trying to write a book about history, and thus his book shouldn't be judged on this basis. That's a good defense, however, the very first paragraph of the book reads:
"Throughout Chinese History, vast numbers of books have been written on every aspect of human life. Unfortunately, only a small percentage of them have been translated into Western languages. Because of this many misconceptions regarding Chinese culture are promulgated in the West, both wittingly and unwittingly. Even the most superficial of readings of Chinese literature would dispel these fictions, but the language barrier has blocked the Western reader.
In no field is this sad state of affairs more apparent than in the history of Chinese martial arts." (from the Forward p. xv)
Then we have on page. xxvii, two pages titled "Objective of the Book," in which the original author of the manual, Huang Bo Nian, drops this piece of historic revisionism:
"All of the bayonet methods [in the book] derive from famous ancient and current spear experts. These techniques all come from years of practice, teaching, and practical combat experience. If you practice with a bayonet, you will increase your efficiency."
During the Boxer Uprising (1900) the one Chinese fighting force that was even capable of putting up a feeble resistance to American, Japanese, French, Russian, and British troops, was a force of 10,000 men who had been trained and drilled by Western advisers, they were Western style troops. The Bayonet training shown in this book came from two generations of Western teachers. Heck, Chang Kai-shek was a Methodist who studied in Military Science in Communist Moscow!
The martial artists of this time were caught up in a swirl of martial prowess and humiliation. They were trying to defend themselves from attacks on the value of martial arts. The publication of "pure" military fighting manuals, which claimed an ancient pedigree, were part of their feeble defense.
The truth is, Chinese culture does not fit in boxes.
----------------

As for my African Bagua Videos 1 & 2. I have changed my opinion some in the last year, as you can see if you read posts in the Baguazhang or History categories. But the basic premise still stands. Africa and China have much in common religiously, and there is a meaningful parallel between African martial dances and Chinese martial arts.
Chinese martial arts is a theatrical performing religious tradition, interwoven with ritual healing, exorcism, and trance-possession which can actually be used for fighting. A religious-dance culture can be found in Africa which has these same attributes.
Prior to the 20th Century there may have been some part of China, or some Chinese military force somewhere, in which pure martial arts were practiced. It's possible. Nearly all Chinese scholarship in the 20th Century has pursued this line of reasoning. China had the highest literacy rate of any country in the world for 2000 years, yet almost nothing written about pure martial arts. They have mined the storehouses of knowledge digging everywhere for scrolls and of the few they have found, even some of those are fakes.
It's time to give up on that idea. Martial arts, Opera, Religion, and healing arts have all suffered great losses because of it. The truth may hurt, but the richness of Daoist, martial, ritual theater is worth trying to recover. And you guys have a role to play in that.

________

As for my "Pure Internal," video, I would have thought that the part criticizing long and short power would have been the controversial part. Is shaking really that controversial? I'd be surprised if any famous master disagreed. Perhaps my wild eyed display deserves some constructive criticism, or a humorous video response. I welcome it.

__________
Naturally, all of your criticisms are appropriate. I took a dig at Rovere's credentials and that was barbaric of me. (What was he teaching those UN soldiers? How to say please and thank you to Hezbollah? Excuse me if I have a little contempt for the UN.) Shame on me. Shame. Shame.
Still, reading his book one might wonder if he has the 10,000 hours of Xingyi practice most of us would consider minimum for a teacher.

Blind Sage said, "Read [Scott's] bio, he's about performance.... well that and apparently showing the rest of us how we don't really understand IMA, while smiling and wishing us a happy day." Thank you for reading my bio, it was the most respectful thing you could have done-- I feel so....understood.

I have now finished the whiskey.

[klonk]

Have another.

[Kevin_Wallbridge]

Welcome to the fist