the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Both the original article writer and the review writer have commented on this thread previously.

blindsage wrote:Both the original article writer and the review writer have commented on this thread previously.

oops.

Look what you miss when you go away for a year....

This by the way lines up perfectly with my other theory that the difference between internal and external martial arts is that: Internal was what you learned to stop yourself from falling into trance-possession under extreme circumstances. External was what you learned so that your body would survive the trauma of being possessed by a deity. See my video African Bagua part 2.

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The word 'internal' was a marketing label used by some martial artists in the early 20th century to promote their teachings. At a time of widespread illiteracy - it wasn't hard to 'spin' and reconfigure the entire martial arts landscape. Sun lu Tang in particular was the darling of the academics who were trying to find china's equivalent to bushido.

In fact, the word 'internal' caused great consternation at that time and the name for that group of people was changed at least once and then back again. At a time when physical exertions (long fingernails and bound feet were the norm ) were seen as uncouth and a practice belonging to gangsters it was deemed that 'internal work' was of a higher quality. All nonsense - but somehow it stuck.

jtan wrote:The word 'internal' was a marketing label used by some martial artists in the early 20th century to promote their teachings. At a time of widespread illiteracy - it wasn't hard to 'spin' and reconfigure the entire martial arts landscape. Sun lu Tang in particular was the darling of the academics who were trying to find china's equivalent to bushido.

And if any of you believe that to be factual, I have some beautiful hurricane free dry land in southern Louisiana that I'd love to sell to you. Please contact me for further details.

lol @ Doc

Doc,

Surely you don't believe the internal/external division based on qi? Shaolin has qi work as well. Or is it you believe the internal/external division based on religion? Taoist is internal and Buddhism has come from outside china?

Or perhaps you believe in the theory so current these days - as in internal as a ground path inside the body? And external as division where you get a rotation of the waist versus leg strength? Ridiculous.

That division is all nonsense. The reason no one can talk about internal or external is because there is no such thing. There are only differences in training methodologies. And spin. From one's reply can be seen the depths of one's knowledge.

put down the coffee, doc. coffee is for closers. you call yourself a salesman doc?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-AXTx4PcKI

Cute. However, there's no sale to close in a dead debate about product labeling. Internal? External? Call it what you will. What does it matter? Does the label name really impact the outcome of the training?

There's only you and what you practice. If what you learned and practiced yesterday seems like a big deal to you, then you probably aren't training hard enough to learn anything of new value today.

And BTW, closers don't sit around drinking coffee!

jtan wrote:Doc,

Surely you don't believe the internal/external division based on qi? Shaolin has qi work as well. Or is it you believe the internal/external division based on religion? Taoist is internal and Buddhism has come from outside china?

Or perhaps you believe in the theory so current these days - as in internal as a ground path inside the body? And external as division where you get a rotation of the waist versus leg strength? Ridiculous.

That division is all nonsense. The reason no one can talk about internal or external is because there is no such thing. There are only differences in training methodologies. And spin. From one's reply can be seen the depths of one's knowledge.

Do you really see no difference between, say, a shaolin routine and a bagua form, or any similar example? No difference in energy dynamics, no difference in body mechanics?

At least one of you rum soaked contenders asked back there for some more detail on women's underpants being used on the battle field!
I've put together some more references for you...if you're not afraid to click the link...go on, you know you want too.
http://northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/?p=1371

Jtan and Doc Stier, you are both right. My theory is that there were two distinct ideas about how a person could deal with possession by deities. Everyone agreed that possession was harmful to your health, that it shortened your life. Among Daoist priests, it was thought that trance and visualization could be learned from a place of weakness allowing familiarity with the deity, or even control over the deity, without becoming possessed. This was understood in physical and physiological terms. In other words, I'm suggesting that they did internal martial arts as a way to stop themselves from becoming possessed. You would feel the aggression of the deity taking hold and dissolve it before it got you. (Call it internal, call it jindan, call it late for dinner!--if you want)
The other idea was that, by training difficult postures and a wide range of physically challenging movements, you would make your body resilient enough to handle or survive being possessed. (call it external, call it conditioning, call it paranoia--if you want!) In the north the most common expression for being possessed was "being ridden like a horse," could that be why they called it horse stance?

I already knew about the Daoist practice of not going into trance when I interviewed a Santaria priest from Cuba who told me priests and drummers are absolutely forbidden to become possessed; However, they learn the exact same dances that people do when they are possessed. That's what gave me the idea.

Scott P. Phillips wrote:Jtan and Doc Stier, you are both right. My theory is that there were two distinct ideas about how a person could deal with possession by deities.

Scott:

I can't speak for Jtan, but I was not speaking in reference to possession by spiritual entities.

There may in fact have been a relevant concern about such phenomenon among some CMA practitioners in past generations, especially in the rural areas of China. However, I don't believe that fear of possession, or concern about other occult phenomenon, is a widespread concern among most contemporary CMA practitioners. Thus, such concerns are probably not common factors in determining what most people will practice or how it will be practiced today.

I think that most current training regimens are focused on more obvious and practical agenda priorities which require all of the time, energy, and effort available to the vast majority of modern practitioners. Any substantial amount of time spent thinking about such occult priorities will only serve to diminish training results for most, IMO.

Even so, if your physical skills are of such a high level that you can afford to follow the path less traveled in pursuit of such occluded agendas, then more power to you.

Chris,

There are indeed differences in body mechanics. But how can you clump tai ji, bagua and hsing-i together and call it internal (in a technical sense) ? That's all I'm saying. Traditionally, you train the jin (trained strength) then the body mechanics appear. you can't train body mechanics and then have the jin appear. Or could you ... ? ...? ...?

Doc,

( * scratching my head * ) --- now that I think about it ... chen's taiji borrowed/stole hsing i in cannon fist and all bagua today have hsing i influences from the 1920s going back to the aforementioned association ... so that would mean they're the same(?) ... You may be right.
I will bow out gracefully from this discussion at this point.

I am sorry I even chimed in. Now I know why it is BTDT.

Scott,

Your knowledge surpasses my experience.

RE: Demonic Possession and IMA:
What Doc said

RE: Can we distinguish IMA from EMA:
What Chris Fleming said

Further to Chris' comment, I personally DO see very similar shenfa, jin and even training methods in all three "internal" MA.
This is, perhaps, why so many people cross-train them - and find their techniques and strategies complimentary - without necessarily having to go back to square one.

Sorry not to mention qi, but this is IME only.

Whether the three arts have a shared heritage* or whether the distinction is a relatively recent one that dates back to Sun Lu-tang, and the similiarities are entirely coincidental is simply a historical question. Regardless of this question, the fact is, today these arts are widely known as IMA and are frequently taught together.

*Though I have never heard that Chen Taiji borrowed HsingI's cannon fist; the latter is a single element of HsingI, the former a complete form that contains no posture resembling HsingI's cannon fist element. I suspect JTan is mistakenly mixing terminology with technique.