Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby chimerical tortoise on Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:48 pm

Scott P. Phillips wrote:Hi Chris, I missed you're post. The Shaw Brothers have more to teach us about Martial Arts History than all the politically sanctioned epics and martial arts histories that came out of 2+2=5 PRC China.


Sorry, would like to call bullshit on this.

That's tantamount to saying, "Hollywood has taught us more about American History than all the politically sanctioned epics and histories that came out of 2+2=5 US of A."

There are plenty of competent martial artists in the wushu system. They aren't old men on mountaintops by any means, but that's why I would highly recommend reading Orientalism by Edward Said.
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby bailewen on Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:17 pm

Scott P. Phillips wrote:Gongfu means meritorious action, don't take my word for it. I got it from Kristofer Schipper in Taoism and the Arts of China.
Here is the quote: http://northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/?p=38
Bailewen, I'll take your challenge if you give me a standard of falsifiability. What would you consider proof?
First I'll backpedal, I don't know. How could we, we are speculating.


Off the top of my head....I would want to see an original Chinese text or reference to perhaps a classical Chinese dictionary.

From the context of the quote it's my opinion that the author was extremely loose in his translation and the only thing "religious" or "meritorious" about the term is the context. "Gongfu" does mean "work". It can refer to things that you have done for someone or for a community but there is nothing inherently religious or "meritorious" about it. I won't discard the idea out of hand because I went and looked up the author: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristofer_Schipper. Seems like a fairly solid academic but again, having done a bit of translation myself, I know that Chinese terms can be highly contextual and you can't always trust that a particular translation of a term in one place will be appropriate elsewhere.

Daoist priests were always rare...But everyone had a Granny who knew formulas...

What's your point with that? It seems to go against your premise that [discobeat]Everybody was kung fu fighting....[/discobeat]

I would go further than you. There were whole regions of China where the concept of "pure martial arts" didn't even exist. Martial artists good enough to take on disciples were rare. But a lot of people learned a family form.

I'm still not sure what you mean by "pure martial arts".
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby Chris Fleming on Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:35 pm

Hey now, don't be hard on him, he read it in a book on TAOISM!!@!!@!@! LOL

Probably believes The Chronicles of Tao really happened that way too.
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby johnwang on Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:59 pm

Scott P. Phillips wrote:The Shaw Brothers have more to teach us about Martial Arts History than all the politically sanctioned epics and martial arts histories that came out of 2+2=5 PRC China.

We can learn a lot of useful information from this movie and that's for sure. There is no flying on the roof top or Fajin and send people flying but a lot of good training information.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTFWl6ejKxE
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby Scott P. Phillips on Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:44 pm

Sorry Bailewen, I was assuming you read the debate about Xingyi in the Chinese Army. I explain the pure martial arts idea there. But the second link below will explain it too.

Chimerical, I have over stated the case simply because it was fun to say. Don't you WANT to believe those Kungfu movies are the real thing? Anyway, for a really great explanation for why we should willingly discard most of the History published during the PRC Era see, Qigong Fever, by David A. Palmer. I explain the whole 2+2=5 comment in the review of his book. http://northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/?p=250

Douglas Wile also went pretty far in his last article in The Journal of Martial Arts towards saying the entire project of martial arts History has been a charade up until now. Definitely worth the purchase price. Funny, I just found an article that reviews Douglas Wile's article, explains a bit about Daoism, and links to an old EmptyFlower debate about FaJing! I think you guys will like it. http://northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/?p=259
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby Andy_S on Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:06 am

Scott:

I have just read your second blog post referenced above.

Your point (or was it Wile's?) that much of what passes for Taiji history is absolute and utter bollocks will find much favour here. Though I am not sure that many posters on this forum would be willing to pay the "purchase price" simply to read a reiteration of their existing opinions.

Your point that fajing in Taiji forms was originally designed to show an audience (?) that the performer (??) had been possesssed by demons (!?!) is totally in synch with what little I know of your general manicness - as is your comment re Shaw Bros movies. Which leads me to ask the following.

(1) AFAIK, there was not much of a performance tradition in Chen Taijiquan. The stories (I won't say history) handed down from the Chen clan indicate that many of the Chen people were fighters, escorts, etc. (And yes, I have been to the village and seen the 'old' gravestones - round the back - and the 'new' gravestones round the front. Guess which ones laud the ancestors' martial accomplishments?) Broad point being, this was a functional, not a performance martial art, and indeed, we know from the abilities of Chen Fa-ke in the early years of the century that he could do the biz martially, and was not much into performance. To wit: He faced criminal investigation for whacking a bandit outside Wenxian, and when he first arrived in Beijing, Taiji enthusiasts who attended his demo - not theatrical performance - were surprised at how damned fast it was all over. So what was the performance role of Chen family MA, IYHO?

(2) If we are to take your demonic-performance contention at face value (an enormous IF - but temporarily at least, I am prepared to hear you out), should we assume that your whole-lotta-shaking-going-on clip is designed not to show how to slap some bitch around on da streetz....but to impress a YouTube audience about your ability to summon up demons and frighten the children?
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby Andy_S on Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:20 am

Another and broader question: Clearly, CMA have always played a role in the various local Chinese operas as they do in today's kungfu cinema - but what other CMArtists were involved in public performances and displays of skill?

Eg:
- Itinerant Taoist or Buddhist priests - and various rogues masquerading as priests - whose alms-begging routines would include martial displays?
- Secret society peeps demoing iron shirt-type skills/tricks to lure credulous new recruits?
- Lion dancers and others who would perform their 'dances' in order to intimidate local merchants into coughing up protection cabbage (which still goes on in Chinatowns today)?
- Trained fighters who demoed spectacular forms, qigong skills or martial/magic tricks to impress anyone requiring muscle, (warlords, military commanders, well-to-do merchants), etc, in order to enter their employ?
- Amazing and unmartial feats of alleged 'qi power' that send people flying without doing them any damage, but which impress the flaming hell out of a lot of potential students?

....oh hang on, that last tradition is not simply historical, it continues well into the present.
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby Scott P. Phillips on Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:33 am

Andy, if you drop your attempt to put things in boxes I think you will have grasped my main points. I am working on a fuller description of life in Olde China for you, it will answer your questions too, but I got kind of excited about it, so I want it to be good and I'm taking my time.
Chen Fake showed up in Beijing at a moment when the political heat to discard was near boiling. Had he showed up with the same skill set, the same martial power, in 1800 he would have also been known for his extraordinary pantomime skills. Chen style is superb training for pantomime. It is physical theater, Buster Keaton would have found in Chen Fake, a brother. The merit he accumulated practicing gongfu was part of his duty to his ancestors, his duty to resolve their lingering desires and unfulfilled commitments--through his own good work. Gongfu in that sense is at least a personalized exorcism, in group performance it becomes much more. (And that, as least as much as fighting ability, is why it is on peoples graves/tombs)

There are as many different types of so called "Opera" as there are types of gongfu. Perhaps exactly as many.

I'm not trying to put Fajing in a box either. It was probably many things to many people. But it could be used to show possession. It could also be used to scare the inner ghosts from the audience. Just this summer I watched a Tangki in Tainan Fajing the air around a guy in a wheelchair for about 10 minutes while taking martial poses and drawing characters (like gong--merit) in the air with sword fingers. Really great performance fajing can also be used to break someones arm, stop their heart, or gently float them across the room, out the door, down the stairs and into a waiting palanquin.
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby Andy_S on Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:24 am

SNIP
Andy, if you drop your attempt to put things in boxes I think you will have grasped my main points. I am working on a fuller description of life in Olde China for you, it will answer your questions too, but I got kind of excited about it, so I want it to be good and I'm taking my time.
SNIP

Not boxes but - in the current format at least - lists. Look forward to reading about life in Olde China. Please, however, do not get too excited.

SNIP
Chen Fake showed up in Beijing at a moment when the political heat to discard was near boiling. Had he showed up with the same skill set, the same martial power, in 1800 he would have also been known for his extraordinary pantomime skills.
SNIP

IIRC, one of his key students in Beijing WAS a Beijing opera man. But that is only one.

SNIP
Chen style is superb training for pantomime. It is physical theater, Buster Keaton would have found in Chen Fake, a brother. The merit he accumulated practicing gongfu was part of his duty to his ancestors, his duty to resolve their lingering desires and unfulfilled commitments--through his own good work. Gongfu in that sense is at least a personalized exorcism, in group performance it becomes much more.
SNIP

Well honouring the ancestors is one thing...resolving their lingering desires and unfulfilled commitments might have been embarrassing. (What would he have done if the Old Duck next door wandered up and asked: "Fa-ke you saucy dawg, now my Old Man has passed away, I'd like to invite you in for a cup of tea and some slap 'n tickle...fa your jing all over me big boy!") As for "exorcising" the, er, "unfulfilled desires" of generations past - I am not qualified to comment.

SNIP
(And that, as least as much as fighting ability, is why it is on peoples graves/tombs)
SNIP

Can't speak for other clan MA, but the point I made above is that MA skills are NOT mentioned on the old tombs in Chen Village (only on the shiney new ones out front where the Taiji museum is being built). Which leads one to conjecture that either (a) all the stories about their martial skills are lies, damned lies, or (b) MA was rough-house stuff, so was not highly regarded as a social accomplishment.
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby Chris McKinley on Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:26 am

Andy,

Insightful thread topic. What, IYO, are the potential ramifications to the modern practitioner of gaining more clarity on the questions of this thread? IOW, how might clearer information affect our perspectives today? Not that it has to, mind you, I'm just curious about your particular opinion on the matter.
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby Strange on Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:07 am

gongfu is not to be confused with gongde (公德, lit. public merit), or religious. this term is usually reserved for the description of religious rites/sacrifices/prayers/ceremonies.

gongfu does have connotation of work, with nuance of skill gain through hard work/practice; and, in certain instances, may carry meaning that the skill cannot be easily appreciated/fathomed by lay person.
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby Scott P. Phillips on Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:41 am

I think we can be pretty sure that gongfu (功夫) meant different things in different places at different times.
I'm not a native speaker, I'm not even literate. I do think it's reasonable to defer to Schipper whose knowledge of classical Chinese is acknowledged far and wide. When I was in Taiwan this Summer I learned that the leader of a Daoist ritual (the head priest) is called a gaogong (高功), meaning "high merit," the other priests having less "gong" 功.
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby josh on Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:34 pm

Schipper's definition of gongfu as "meritorious action" works in the context of his writings on religion, just as a translation of the term as "martial skill" or "training" would work in the context of an article on martial arts practice. Both meanings are contextual, and are extensions of the base meaning which, as Omar pointed out, is simply "work" or "labor." Yes, gong 功 does have a specific religious sense, but the term is also cognate with gong 工, and gongfu is also found as 工夫. Schipper's research notwithstanding, a good etymological dictionary like Hanyu da cidian provides numerous examples of early uses of this term that lack any religious connotation or the sense that the gongfu in question was necessarily a meritorious form of action. Even in early Buddhist texts, where the term occurs with fairly high frequency, it generally refers simply to the effort put into a practice, and rarely, if ever, to any merit accrued thereby, which is usually designated as gongde 功德.

edit: Here's the Hanyu da cidian entry. The first definition refers to (conscript) labor; the second to time/effort spent in undertaking a task; the third specifically to a period of time; the fourth to skill and understanding acquired through effort; and the fifth specifically to martial arts skill and practice.
【功夫】1.工程夫役。《三国志·魏志·董卓传》“悉發掘陵墓,取寶物” 裴松之 注引《续汉书》:“又 隴石 取材,功夫不難。 杜陵 南山下有 孝武 故陶處,作塼瓦,一朝可辦。”《三国志·吴志·王肃传》:“聞 曹真 發已踰月而行裁半谷,治道功夫,戰士悉作。是賊偏得以逸而待勞,乃兵家之所憚也。”2.谓作事所费的精力和时间。 唐 元稹 《琵琶歌》:“逢人便請送杯盞,著盡功夫人不知。” 唐 秦韬玉 《燕子》诗:“曾與佳人並頭語,幾回抛却繡功夫。” 王润滋 《卖蟹》:“功夫不负有心人。”3.时间。 唐 元稹 《琵琶》诗:“使君自恨常多事,不得功夫夜夜聽。”《古今小说·滕大尹鬼断家私》:“每日只去查點家財雜物,那有功夫走到父親房裏問安。” 柳青 《铜墙铁壁》第六章:“ 银凤 在门外说没功夫,两个就奔出了大门。”4.本领;造诣。 唐 张彦远 《法书要录》卷一:“ 宋文帝 書自謂不減 王子敬 。時議者云:天然勝 羊欣 ,功夫不及 欣 。” 金 王若虚 《滹南诗话》卷下:“而至 老杜 之地者,亦無事乎‘崑體’功夫。” 秦兆阳 《苏醒》:“他原本有一套祖传的武艺功夫。”5.特指武术。《人民日报》1984.7.31:“也有画 中国 ‘功夫’的,画面上拳击格斗,棍棒相迎,飞脚踢刀,好不热闹。”《深圳特区报》1986.3.13:“ 中国 功夫和西洋拳击,究竟谁优谁劣,这是中外人士均感兴趣的问题。”
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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby bailewen on Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:22 pm

That's pretty much what I thought.

Contextually it can refer to religious merit but saying that that was it's "original" meaning is overstating the case. Although...I don't think that the 汉语大词典 is a dictionary of classical Chinese is it?

I do think it's reasonable to defer to Schipper whose knowledge of classical Chinese is acknowledged far and wide.


It certainly is reasonable for you to do that. If Schipper didn't have such credentials. I don't think Josh would bother digging out a citation and I certainly wouldn't bother looking into it. OTOH, as both Josh and I are literate in Chinese, it's reasonable for us to question at the very least the context of his quote. Neither of us are native speakers but we both have spent long periods in China and both have degrees that are related to the topic. I forget Josh's but I seem to remember it was something east asiany. My BA is in Chinese Language and Literature. I'm no emeritus Professor of Oriental Studies but I'm deep enough in to know better than to take his statements at face value.

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Re: Who did CMA in Olde China? And why?

Postby Scott P. Phillips on Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:23 pm

Thank you Josh for clarifying that.
The question then is; if you were performing a martial event dedicated to, in the name of, or possessed by, a god--How was that perceived in Olde China?
I included Schipper's definition to try and answer that question.
Whether theater or gongfu is more for the individual, the audience, or the gods, is a matter of who you ask and when you ask them. All three are true.

Andy, as to your last comment, it could be (a) and it could be (b) but it could also be (c) that gongfu was just too common to mention, or (d) that the Ching government was, like all Chinese governments, in the business of controlling cults--when they found a cult that practiced martial arts they had a habit of killing everyone--if your whole village practiced martial arts "secretly" it probably wasn't a great idea to put that information on your tombs. There was a lot of sensitivity to the idea that dead ancestors could become martyrs for future rebellions. After all, that's what nearly all the Martial Gods are, right?
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