kettlebells hurting? q. for systema folk et al.

[Ian]

a question for the old and wise:

I used to do kettblebell training once or twice per week to add more 'yang' to my regimen of mostly cardio and static holds / slow calisthenics. i.e. 'typical' systema stuff.

starting last week, I ceased kettlebell work completely and focused exclusively on systema conditioning. didn't touch any weights and didn't do any harder-core bodyweight exercises either.

so my limbs have been feeling more free and heavy, and this week at class some people commented that my strikes were a lot harder and more dynamic, and my movement improved. this from just one week off from hard training.

has anyone reported similar findings? any crossfit junkies (starts with 'a' ends with 'she'. lol) want to comment on why you train the way you do? I would appreciate any insights on this.

and please, spare me the "ah young padawan, you're finally learning " comments

thanks!

[TaoBoxer]

So are your strikes harder because you're not lifting..... or as a result of the lifting you've done?? If you're lifting properly there's nothing in KB's that should make you "stiff and static."

Lewitt

[Ian]

I'm striking harder as a result of not lifting (kb strength leaving the body).

there's no way to tell whether I'm lifting properly as there aren't any certified kb instructors in my area, although I think I have a pretty clear idea of what's good and bad movement. I've checked my form in the mirror and compared it to pavel and steve's stuff. not saying I'm perfect by any means... just giving you an idea.

I feel that every time I do systema conditioning, I can feel that my joint strength and mobility have increased. but whenever I work with kbs, I feel like I need to do a lot of soft work to iron out the tension.

(NB: I understand there SHOULDNT be tension after a kb workout, but unfortunately there is. for me the ideal level of relaxation should be something akin to just having gone swimming, played around in the hot pool & cold pool, then an hour on the massage chair. meat hanging off the bones - that kind of feeling.)

[TaoBoxer]

Dunno what to tell you..... I lift heavy and at high reps. Last week I did a mixed set of 100 reps (swings, high pulls, clean/press, snatches, floor presses) with double 70's and then 2 hours of ba gua. You can't double snatch any kind of weight at all with tension. I don't really lift the way the early Pavel stuff was presented with the "zipping up" and the "irradiation." There's nothing wrong with it.... but that work is more like Uechi to me that it is Ba Gua. I concentrate on lifting the weight loose with only as much tension as it takes to hold the weight. I try to let structure take care of the rest.

My suspicion is that you need to get together with one of the "high profile" coaches and have them look at your form. Personally, I like Steve Cotter and and Jeff Martone due to their MA and Tactical background. I can help you with with some resources if you like. If you don't like the bells, don't lift.... I find them indispensible however. Between that and the standing, my kung fu has never been stronger.

Lewitt

[Areios]

it's interesting I want to start KB, so any kinde of info is good on how to train it.

[Syd]

I have been weight lifting for some years now but I work in on and off phases so that I can be free of too much upper body tension - so I might train fairly hard for a month and then I'll not train for two months. I think what is happening is what I have found in my Taiji work ... when you are relaxed and the shoulder joints are loose and open your body is better able to act as a whip ... this is the way striking in Taiji is actually supposed to be as part of the physical dynamic. The Taiji punch has a snap on the end of it and is driven loose until the point of impact like the tail of the whip snapping. When you are loose you can perform striking like this optimally but if you have too much tightness and upper body muscle tension, tension in sinews, joints and muscle range follow and you actually cannot readily generate this type of power. When we used to do hand mitt work for palm striking in class years ago I would be completely loose and generate power from my waist ... I had a guy about 6ft 4" holding the mitt and I nearly knocked his arm off his shoulder on several occasions just from generating loose power - he was so shocked by the power I was generating that he commented which really made me think about it in more depth.

It should be noted that Bruce Lee was well aware of staying loose until the point of impact as a means of generating optimal power ... rooted in the feet, driven by the legs, issued by the waist ... all that is right on but if your upper body is tense your delivery system will be a short circuit every time. My advice would be continue training but try what I do and train on and off to maintain muscle tone and conditioning but then back off and let the looseness come back and you will see far greater results than just constant over training.

Just my 2c.

[RobP]

I'venever used KB's, though occasionally work the sledgehammer as you know. I found my biggest gains in punching came through doing the static push up and through hitting people a lot - not just belting students, but a lot of placing the fist and pushing. For me it's been the biggest short cut in understanding how to hit. Being hit has been very useful too. Again I stress that this isn't just belting each other for the sake of "conditioning" but a progression of work.

Some of the guys use KB's, I know Vladimir has in-depth knowledge of them but Mikahil doesn't like them. They are probably better for the whip-type strikes than the "heavy arm" work

cheers
Rob

[ashe]

a question for the old and wise:

I used to do kettblebell training once or twice per week to add more 'yang' to my regimen of mostly cardio and static holds / slow calisthenics. i.e. 'typical' systema stuff.

starting last week, I ceased kettlebell work completely and focused exclusively on systema conditioning. didn't touch any weights and didn't do any harder-core bodyweight exercises either.

so my limbs have been feeling more free and heavy, and this week at class some people commented that my strikes were a lot harder and more dynamic, and my movement improved. this from just one week off from hard training.

has anyone reported similar findings? any crossfit junkies (starts with 'a' ends with 'she'. lol) want to comment on why you train the way you do? I would appreciate any insights on this.

and please, spare me the "ah young padawan, you're finally learning " comments

thanks!

super compensation.

that's the way it's supposed to work. everyone should have weeks where they de-load. then cycle again.

[MikeC]

it's interesting I want to start KB, so any kinde of info is good on how to train it.

Well, weight lifting is good too. You don't necessarilly need 'kettlebells' to get explosive strength. Normal weights will work and people have been doing fine for years with that. See a trainer.

Jus sayin...

Mike

[I am...]

A couple things come to mind:

1) I am not sure how often you were lifting, but lifting heavy or stretching hard messes with your proprioceptive system, and the effect lasts at least a day, so if you are training close to when you have lifted, you may have been experiencing being slightly less sharp with your body. Ironic in a sense is the fact that the better movement may not be the "kb strength leaving" since it would take a lot longer than a week to leave you, but that your body may be firing in a more exact way and the strength is there in full to help out, now that you have taken some time off, if that makes sense.

2) It is pretty commonly accepted by boxing coaches that hitting the weights doesn't generally make a guy hit much harder if at all, but it does give him power and strength for moving the person around, as well as "armor" in the form of muscle. Some guys don't touch weights and can hit hard naturally, some lift a lot and still cant really impact hit, but can push hit and wrestle like a beast. My point being, address personally, what it is you are hoping to gain from them.

I love kb's but I don't work with them too often due to time constraints anymore. Good luck, and maybe some others will add more.

[ashe]

also, if you haven't structured your program correctly, any strength training will add some residual tension. if you haven't been balancing your program by adding in med ball throws, short sprints, jumping up, o-lift variations, etc. you'll get slower.

[TaoBoxer]

I am not sure what Martial background he has.... but if you look at the way Pavel moves.... He certainly doesn't look stiff. He moves like a Systema guy, if you watche the stretching and mobility vids.

Lewitt

[ashe]

he also has the "fast and loose" stuff fro his spetznaz days, so that makes a big difference. i think you have to look into ALL his stuff to get it all to work right. unfortunately i have had the chance to get ahold of his fast and loose dvd yet.

[TaoBoxer]

I'm not a huge fan of the advertising methods that Dragon Door and Mat Fury et al use..... but I'll be damned if it hasn't worked for em....

Lewitt

[Bhassler]

My best guess would be that you have one or more weak areas (either relative to muscle, connective tissue, or efficiency of organization) that can't properly handle the weight you were using with the kbs. Go through your systema routine (or part of it) slowly, and pay attention to how the energy passes through your body. Then, pick up a kb and do whatever lift you're most comfortable with, and see if you can notice a difference in the way you handle the energy moving through your body. Just go easy and see if you can feel where a larger muscle group is compensating for imperfect alignment. For example, a person with a weak or injured shoulder might compensate by lifting the ribcage and arching the back slightly to protect the shoulder during an upward pulling motion. Typically, it's not a big movement, so you have to go easy enough that you can pick up on the subtleties of what you're actually doing. You may be 95% strong enough for the weight you were using, but that one part of you that's 5% weaker can screw up the whole force chain.