IT/IS

[Sprint]

Now, consider isolating those discrete firings from the actual execution of the motion. IOW, "think" about (use intention) taking that step forward; or "think" about lifting open a window, etc. You can get the myoblasts in your fascia to contract simply by intending those movements without carrying them all the way through. You'll feel it in the form of an odd kind of tension inside you, yet you won't be flexing any muscles or feeling any flexation. It's a weird feeling. When doing the exercises that hone this skill, practitioners get a kind of a buzzing, tingling feeling in their bodies, the result of opposing forces (push-pull, up-down...) and the dynamic tension they cause while you go through these "imaginary" movements just using your will.

Imagining you are moving in a particular way is not Intention - close but no cigar. Also how do you get dynamic tension without flexing any muscles? If muscles are redundant then is this something someone with total body paralysis could do? And if it is, how does it help people in the real world. This whole notion of fascia is not just a reworking of old ideas, it is also complete nonsense.

[Interloper]

It's not imagining, Sprint, and I did not use that term. I did say "imaginary movements," meaning that your neuromuscular system "goes through the motions" of firing those movements without actually making those movements. I also used "think" (in quotations, because it's not verbal thinking, nor is it mental imagining or imagery) to mean to have the intent to perform an action. We don't seem to have any vocabulary for that state of mind.

The dyamic tension comes from the manipulation of those connective tissues -- fascia, tendon -- in push-pull, up-down, back-front firings. You're telling your neuromuscular system to do something, but then stopping it short of actually doing that motion, and holding it in a no-man's-land in between action and non-action. Your ganglia are firing messages to the muscles, but then both are being told to hold up and not complete the process. All revved up with noplace to go. It is done not with the flexation of muscle, but, I believe, with the contractile nature of the connective tissues. Note how Upyu describe's Ark's ability to make his skin (the surface of his body) "hard" to the touch, while remaining relaxed and non-flexed underneath. Maybe Ark's not on the "fascia bandwagon," in his beliefs, but that could be more of an interpretive difference than one of different mechanics. Fascia and tendon both play a role in internal power generation.

Depending on how "complete" individual CIMA's schools of training are, there are exercises to develop this skill as part of the foundational training. I have seen some from Xing-yi sources and from Taiji sources too, but I would hesitate to say that they are widespread in all of the alleged IMAs, because there are so many schools, teachers and practitioners who have never heard of 'em and can't demonstrate them.

[Interloper]

Interloper, do you move your hand by thinking "move hand"?

Also, I get those sensations via normal practice.

There's more to it than that. Can you go through the motions, internally, of opening a window (the old-fashioned sash type, not a crank window), or of boosting yourself up onto a waist-high stonewall -- without actually doing the movements visibly/externally or flexing your arms and shoulders or upper chest muscles? Different set of sensations.

[Interloper]

Interloper, do you move you hand by thinking "move hand"?

i know it was not asked of me, but no you do not, but then again thought is not intent, it is intent that mobilizes the energy to move the hand prior to execution, the energy builds up before it manifests the action....learning to feel and expand that gateway is very useful and what many ima's work with.

Yes, I agree. And, well put. My thoughts there were really tangential to the topic, but reflecting on the research I'd red -- that cognitive thought often disrupts and slows down the transmission of neural signals between intent and action, and that's why learning and moving in a new routine (such as dance steps or forms) can go so much more slowly when we use conscious, cerebral/cognitive thought to learn those movements, while movement is faster and more spontaenous once the "middle man" of cognitive process is removed.

[Interloper]

So again, we come back to the point. Is talking about this using pseudo science any more effective than talking about it in a traditional manner. Does talking about it let you "feel" any better?

What makes you think that this discussion is in the realm of "pseudo science"? I have a natural sciences background, including human and primate physiology, from accredited universities. While Western method is a bit behind in analyzing this stuff to its satisfaction, there is some groundbreaking going on. Schieper's paper on fascia probably is the first. Just because our way of learning these methods has to be hands-on and felt, doesn't make it pseudosscience. It just means it's too "new" to Western thinking to have a working lexicon or paradigm to work with.

[shawnsegler]

"it seems important to get into the habit of thinking each motion has, and in a sense contains, its opposite."

picking nits, but it is not thinking this that matters, it is FEELING it.

This is, I think, actually one of the most important pieces of the whole thing.

I initially started trying to feel my back whenever I made movements going to the front to work as a counterbalance to whatever movement I was working on, and also to start feeling my back more...just giving myself the command to feel back there whenever I punched or...whatever...

Anyhoo, the unforseen consequence of this was that it taught me to be able to put my mind in multiple places at once and to always "feel" in relation to the whole in general and to the polar opposite of wherever my mind is in specific. This has really helped with creating a flow of continuous energy since I can pretty much always now feel both directions of any energetic twist or motion.

Best,

S

[Sprint]

Interloper

I really thought we'd got past this some time ago. You have just said that the dynamic tension comes from the manipulation of fascia and tendons. So here's some other questions for you.

Section I

Muscles are attached to bones by:

a) Tendons
b) Laser beams.

Section II

How do you get dynamic tension in a tendon without having dynamic tension in the muscle it's attached to?

(Hint: If you look at section II first, it may help you to answer section I)

When talking about Intention you got it right, but walked right past it. You said "neuromuscular"...and.." your ganglia are sending messages to the muscles". Then you go into a psysiological twilight zone and say but "the muscles are not involved".....So the yi is communicating with the muscles, but in your view it's the tendons and fascia that do all the work... You seem to believe that there is a parallel motive system in the body that can operate completely separately from muscles, and yet perform the same functions only better.

[shawnsegler]

Sprint. There is an inherent structural quality of the body when you are using minimal musculature and relying more on tendonous strength. It's not that the muscles aren't used at all, but they are used as little as possible, and you use the force of gravity and momentum to move the connected structure...more by throwing or whipping (edit: and twisting, of course) or whatever than squeezing and pushing. The issue is that you first have to stretch or twist your body around for 3 or so years before you can feel the muscles and the tendons and bones and stuff seperately from each other rather than as the sinle mass that most people feel from a lifetime of being pushed down on by gravity.

Best,

S

[Interloper]

We'll keep going around in circles, probably indefinitely. Of course muscles play a role in holding our frame -- which I've stated in previous threads-- but as I've also posted before, we're using other supportive tissues (including tendon, which I've said time and agan) in ways not normally utilized and perhaps counterintuitively to cause internal expansions and contractions that are far subtler than even the refined movements of a skilled athelete. All the while, the muscles you'd expect to be flexing to provide the "strength" and force are relaxed and unflexed.

And since you prefer to resort to sarcasm and condescension, I see no point in continuing to feed your arguments. Bottom line to me is that I can do and demonstrate the things I am describing, and as the study of connective tissues in the roles being discussed here, is a nascent one, the terms and concepts for explaining the sensations and the power output of these practices is not yet complete.

If you ever have the opportunity to get hands-on with some of the skilled people in these methods, I recommend you feel them and then try to explain to everyone's satisfaction how muscle is the driving force behind the frame and power generation they present.

[BruceP]

Shooter, you may (apparently) be the only person on the planet who can answer my question:

Is it possible to structue a movement scenario whereby a person with no previous experience of IT could experience it for themselves, without having it demonstrated or approved by someone who already has IT? I'm not talking about developing a viable combat skill, just a glimpse of what IT feels like that one could build on and explore on their own.

Coming back to this mess for a bit.

Brian, despite how simple your request may seem, it was very challenging to work up a movement scenario that would give you a glimpse of IT. Anyway, here goes.

I've worked construction more than half my life as a carpenter, scaffolder, structural welder etc. A few of us used to play a game whenever we were working at height where we'd walk out onto a beam (5 or 6 inches wide) and then stand still (with no safety line) and look straight up into the sky. With clouds moving overhead and no peripheral features to orient with, one had to be sunk, relaxed, and centered. Just to one-up the others, some of us would close our eyes. Doing something similar is a simple exercise you can do to glimpse the primer.

You don't have to be thirty feet off the ground to explore the exercise - eight feet or less will do. As long as it is enough to put you on alert, it'll contain the requisite internal functionings that I've found to be present in the meditative practice I mentioned earlier. I went outside this morning and stood on one of my sawhorses which has a 2x6 top plate and listened for the frequency just to make sure it was an accurate equivalent of the 'state' I've learned to work within in the stationary ball drill. It was, and then some. It's best to do the exercise outdoors and to be high enough that there are no peripheral features (trees, buildings etc) to visually orient yourself. The sky can be cloudy or clear...doesn't matter.

Find a long, narrow, elevated surface (five or six inches wide) and stand one foot in front of the other so your feet are centered. Slowly tilt your head back and center your gaze. Instead of using the usual tug of war of agonistic/antagonist, focus on your 'dantien' movement as a stabilizer. Roll it in whatever direction you feel necessary to stay centered. I wiggle it so as not to get too much 'momentum'. Listen for right or left weightedness. Right-weightedness is too much thinking or dialogue. Left-weightedness is to much physical activity. The opposite may be true for you so you'll have to work that out in your own exploration. It's a mere glimpse of the equilibrium and internal balance of core tension, and neutrality of mind that primes the movement, but it doesn't take the center outside of yourself so it fails to emulate IT on even a basic level. The stationary ball drill puts the center outside, between the hands. With the primer in place and the center contained in the ball (or beyond the ball), you're playing with power.

Focus on the tension that creeps up your core as your head tilts back. That's the balance and invigoration that primes IT. That uneasiness in your gut is 'dantien' that naturally disperses when the frequency is off. If you can find the internal mechanism/response/sequence to consolidate 'dantien' before it disperses into your thoughts and hyperactivity on the initial lockdown of looking up, you're halfway there.

If you can close your eyes, you'll get a completely different experience again, and it might help to give you more than just a glimpse of the primer.
Bruce

[Sprint]

Shawn

All movement relies on "tendonous" strength. Remember without the tendon the muscle can't make the bone move (ahem). My point is that muscles and nerves are the only thing that makes us move. Then people say oh, well it's all about stretching the tendons, but the reality is a tendon won't stretch unless it has something pulling on it - and that means the process must be driven by the contraction of muscle, unless of course you think that bones can move by themselves.

I think it is important that people realize that IT/IS is something that they can conceptualize relatively easily. The greatest problem or barrier to understanding is to believe that there is some especially deep process going on.

Too many people confuse the engine with the tires.

[Sprint]

We'll keep going around in circles, probably indefinitely. Of course muscles play a role in holding our frame -- which I've stated in previous threads-- but as I've also posted before, we're using other supportive tissues (including tendon, which I've said time and agan) in ways not normally utilized and perhaps counterintuitively to cause internal expansions and contractions that are far subtler than even the refined movements of a skilled athelete. All the while, the muscles you'd expect to be flexing to provide the "strength" and force are relaxed and unflexed.

And since you prefer to resort to sarcasm and condescension, I see no point in continuing to feed your arguments. Bottom line to me is that I can do and demonstrate the things I am describing, and as the study of connective tissues in the roles being discussed here, is a nascent one, the terms and concepts for explaining the sensations and the power output of these practices is not yet complete.

If you ever have the opportunity to get hands-on with some of the skilled people in these methods, I recommend you feel them and then try to explain to everyone's satisfaction how muscle is the driving force behind the frame and power generation they present.

Interloper

I'm sorry I was having a laugh. But you make these black and white statements and then in your next post you retract. As for getting hands on, I have done and I learned the how to as well. But let me ask you this. You say that muscles play a role in holding our frame. What about fa li, fa jin? Do you think leg muscles are used or not?

[Muad'dib]

because there are so many schools, teachers and practitioners who have never heard of 'em and can't demonstrate them.

Baby, bathwater. Re-Edit: What I mean is this is completely correct, but not all traditional schools suffer from this failing. Just most of them.

If you ever have the opportunity to get hands-on with some of the skilled people in these methods

I've met traditional IMA practitioners who can create the same results I've been told the other people can do.

I recommend you feel them and then try to explain to everyone's satisfaction how muscle is the driving force behind the frame and power generation they present.

No. That is the point, I don't care about explaining it. I care about doing it. As you yourself said, you need to meet someone who can show you how to do it. Beyond that, it is an academic exercise in writing.

Edit: Besides, I never claimed muscle was the driving force. I never claimed anything but that blithering on about fascia is doing a disservice to people who don't have access to quality teaching, traditional or "fascial".

I have a natural sciences background, including human and primate physiology, from accredited universities.

So you may be the only person qualified to discuss this, but in an open forum, when people don't have your background, you are creating an enviroment where a bunch of loons wander around saying "It's fascia, Dude", and pat themselves on the back without advancing their skills an iota.

While Western method is a bit behind in analyzing this stuff to its satisfaction,

I thinkt hat speaks for itself.

[Dmitri]

Bruce -- fascinating stuff; I'll try that as soon as I get the chance. (Which might be a while, there's just not that many places around here that satisfy these conditions... Maybe I'll just take a chunk of a 4x4 and just lay it down on a roof of some parking lot or something.)
Thanks for sharing.

[BruceP]

Almost forgot to mention Scott P. Phillips's latest blog post;
Monkey Doesn't Want To Go To School

Awsome!

Dmitri, not to nitpick, but a 4x4 might be too narrow. You probably have the balance for it though. I've seen your little one riding along on your foot while you played form so...