Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby MAFAN on Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:50 pm

HAHA, yeah- good times!
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby nianfong on Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:51 pm

just like punching, you always train throws so you can make them non-lethal. the thing is with throws, it takes more effort to make them non-lethal, whereas for punching, it's easier to make them non-lethal.

Any hip throw or shoulder throw can easily be adjusted so the guy doesn't spin over and hit the floor as one unit. you just pick him up and drop him, and he'll have a lot more broken things. that said, the judoka actually train their shoulder throw to drive their opponent into the ground, sacrificing their own balance, and adding their own body weight into the down-force of the throw.
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:35 am

CaliG wrote:
DeusTrismegistus wrote:Just because something has injuries in its competitions does not mean that there are not even more dangerous techniques that are not allowed. It is also simply common sense that when the focus of practice becomes to win competitions then techniques that are not allowed in competitions fall by the wayside and eventually disappear. Yes the legal SC and Judo techniques are dangerous, but is stupid to assume that the illegal moves are somehow not more dangerous, if they weren't more dangerous then they would be legal.


I'm just curious have you ever been in a Sc, judo, wrestling or bjj competition?

You don't pay much attention around here do you? I posted a whole thread about how I performed at the Shuai Jiao nationals in april.
Because those guys have some serious moves that could easily be adjusted to cause someone some serious harm. Take the fireman's carry for example you could easily drop someone on their head with that move, but thank goodness in competition when people do it they pull the head to their body so that the opponent doesn't spend the rest of the week in the hospital

I can remember once in bjj when a friend of mine caught a new up and coming player in a biceps slicer. The other guy felt the pain but didn't think it could cause him any real harm so he didn't tap and the two bones in his forearm snapped. At the time all the students in the school were in shock but then we started to remember that although rolling can be like a game these techniques were meant to maim.

Also I don't know why there are guys on here claiming that judo is somehow watering down things, because most judo instructors I have trained with also knew Japanese jujitsu, small circle jujitsu and (with my current teacher) combat sambo. But I usually their judo classes because the focus was very clear how to throw.

I'd also add that Crosley Gracie teaches the classical Japanese system of jujitsu the Gracies were taught.

So the dangerous moves are there but we don't use them in competition, I suppose you could ask what's the point in which case I'll refer you to this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=568 Basically the idea is that you are going against with someone who doesn't want to allow you do your moves, no it's not a real fight, but it's the closest thing to a real fight against someone who has some fighting skill. (Even the streets can't guarantee that.)


Of course shuai jiao and Judo have moves that can be easily adjusted to be very dangerous, I have been saying the exact same thing for a while now. During the shuai jiao comp two people got their knees torn up and at least one of them was from a leg blocking throw where they blocked right across the knee, which we were told to avoid doing before starting. There are also shuai jiao throws that break joints and bones during the throw or the setup. There are throws which crank the neck while you throw them which are also illegal in comps.

I made a post about this a while back but the difference between a deadly technique and a non-lethal technique is simply the probability of it causing serious injury. Cranking someone's neck back while doing inner hooking at full force is much more likely to cause injury than simply pushing back on their chest or shoulder. Any technique has the capacity to cause serious harm when done full force, certain techniques have a much higher probability of it. There is only 2 reasons why a technique becomes illegal in competitions, either too many people get hurt from it, or they preemptively ban something that is viewed as likely to cause harm.

Also this just occurred to me. If these deadly techniques are too dangerous to practice against someone then how do people use them in competitions?
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby CaliG on Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:36 pm

You don't pay much attention around here do you? I posted a whole thread about how I performed at the Shuai Jiao nationals in april.


No disrespect but no I don't read every post you make and I don't read every thread. I've got better things to do with my time and I only read the one that look interesting to me.

That's why I asked the question, it was an honest one. Yes obviously there are more dangerous techniques that aren't used in competition.

My point in my teachers in BJJ and in Judo also know and do Jujitsu and Combat Sambo, so yes some judoka are still learning the deadly stuff. But if your whole focus is on competition (although mine is not) then you're probably not going to bother and if someone doesn't bother to learn the other techniques who really cares?

Most competitors would do well in a street fight. Will they win everytime? No, but that's the nature of the beast. I just don't get this whole hang up about judo being watered down because a lot of people aren't learning the hardcore deadly secrets of Jujitsu. Because unless you can dodge bullets you should really focus on staying out of street fights.
Last edited by CaliG on Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:32 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby JAB on Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:47 pm

I love it when someone starts talking about how "deadly" their art is!!! It is almost as laudible as those stories back in the day about registering your fists as lethal weapons!!
You guys are silly -loco-
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby Syd on Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:02 pm

Just a quick side note to say I really like Tim Cartmell and have had much respect for him and his exploration of our arts for many years ... his no nonsense/practical approach is a boon to us all.
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby Fubo on Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:10 pm

JAB wrote:I love it when someone starts talking about how "deadly" their art is!!! It is almost as laudible as those stories back in the day about registering your fists as lethal weapons!!
You guys are silly -loco-


I don't know if your comments were directed at everybody here, but I was merely saying that the techniques that are safer to practice in competition are not less dangerous then so called too "deadly" to spar with techniques, but some how can be more so as you can train them with full force and commitment.
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby CaliG on Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:30 pm

Fubo wrote:
JAB wrote:I love it when someone starts talking about how "deadly" their art is!!! It is almost as laudible as those stories back in the day about registering your fists as lethal weapons!!
You guys are silly -loco-


I don't know if your comments were directed at everybody here, but I was merely saying that the techniques that are safer to practice in competition are not less dangerous then so called too "deadly" to spar with techniques, but some how can be more so as you can train them with full force and commitment.


Good point Fubo. I remember when I visited a combat sambo class in Poland and one of the things they showed me was that you can take some throws and pick-ups and then instead of dropping them on the ground in front of you you raise one knee and drop their torso on it.

I don't know the name of the throw, but I've seen it a lot. Basically one hand is behind your opponent's head, the other hand shoots between their legs you pick them up, they're horizontal to the ground and...
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby Fubo on Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:47 pm

CaliG wrote:
Fubo wrote:
JAB wrote:I love it when someone starts talking about how "deadly" their art is!!! It is almost as laudible as those stories back in the day about registering your fists as lethal weapons!!
You guys are silly -loco-


I don't know if your comments were directed at everybody here, but I was merely saying that the techniques that are safer to practice in competition are not less dangerous then so called too "deadly" to spar with techniques, but some how can be more so as you can train them with full force and commitment.


Good point Fubo. I remember when I visited a combat sambo class in Poland and one of the things they showed me was that you can take some throws and pick-ups and then instead of dropping them on the ground in front of you you raise one knee and drop their torso on it.

I don't know the name of the throw, but I've seen it a lot. Basically one hand is behind your opponent's head, the other hand shoots between their legs you pick them up, they're horizontal to the ground and...


I think I can picture the throw you are talking about... We have a 5 time Russian national Sambo champion at our dojo that does some pick up type throws similar to what you describe, where he could easily add the knee thing, but he likes to suspend you for a second, and then plough you into the mat... feels like a freight train hit and is very disorienting.
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby Finny on Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:02 pm

Also I don't know why there are guys on here claiming that judo is somehow watering down things, because most judo instructors I have trained with also knew Japanese jujitsu, small circle jujitsu and (with my current teacher) combat sambo. But I usually their judo classes because the focus was very clear how to throw.

I'd also add that Crosley Gracie teaches the classical Japanese system of jujitsu the Gracies were taught.

So the dangerous moves are there but we don't use them in competition



I love how folks always want to have it both ways.

"No no, Judo was definitely an improvement - culling redundant techniques and promoting 'live' training etc"

"Oh, no, we still know all the traditional stuff too"


The Gracies were taught by a JUDO man - what classical system of jujutsu were they taught?

"Small Circle Jiu-jitsu" and "Combat Sambo" aint koryu jujutsu

I think Dan (Bodywork) has a great point - Judo is a fantastic art - one of the best.

But it admittedly doesn't train it's exponents for COMBAT in it's purest sense - which is the crucial difference.

Easy to say, forty years later from behind a keyboard: "Oh the Judo guy should've known if you're dealing with a knife blah blah blah"

The point is, he didn't. He was trained for sport grappling, and in a combat scenario, that's what he did.

Takenouchi Ryu, arguably the oldest koryu jujutsu ryuha still in existance, specialises in combat with short blades. Takenouchi Ryu has one of the most extensive grappling curriculla in the world - they have so many throws it's not funny.

BUT - they still practise fighting in armour, against someone in armour, with short (and long, and everything in between) blades.

Say what you will, at the end of the day there are things Judo training engenders that perhaps were/are not to be found in koryu jujutsu

And there are definitely things trained in koryu jujutsu that you will never see in a Judo dojo.

Like Dan said - appreciate them both and accept the differences as just another complexity in the world.
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby CaliG on Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:36 am

Yes and no one who does koryu jujutsu has ever been cut with a knife right? ;D Check this out http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopi ... =0&start=0

But whatever...this is a pointless argument. You are going to train the way you think is best for you and I'm going to train the way I think is the best for me.

Btw, the proper response to a knife is a gun, which the Gracies also train in, so I guess that would make their jujitsu the top in the world unless koryu guys have learned how to catch bullets in mid-air. ;)

Good times & Happy training,

G
Last edited by CaliG on Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:25 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby MAFAN on Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:20 am

Agree with CaliG comment re we will train (and support) the methods we choose, so is pointless argument.
also, plenty of handgun/ rifle etc use and disarm in pre/ post war Jujutsu (refined between 1900 and 1950ish).

One last thing before I free myself from this increasingly 'my dog can beat your dog' conversation- There's nothing to discredit someone's otherwise credible experience and views than their willingness to indulge in the downward spiral of a pissing contest these things generally turn into-
Hope we're all keeping our Zanshin :)
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby Finny on Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:00 am

Yeah that's kinda the point I was trying to make.

Yes and no one who does koryu jujutsu has ever been cut with a knife right? Check this out http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopi ... =0&start=0


A thread about Judoka using Judo in real life? Perhaps you copied the wrong thread - there was nothing relevant there.


I never said "no-one who does koryu jujutsu was ever cut with a knife"

What I was saying was that certain, insecure folks can sometimes want to claim it all, whereas Dan was rightly pointing out that there are differences that should be celebrated and acknowleged, rather than used as an ego crutch.

But I can see you guys agree so - cheers,

All the best.
Last edited by Finny on Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby MAFAN on Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:59 am

My dog is tuffest. LULZ! - not directed at Finny as such- just about how this thread has gone in general. - yes I will but the hell out now. ;)
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Re: Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

Postby Iskendar on Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:02 am

CaliG wrote:Btw, the proper response to a knife is a gun


Paging Sgt. Tueller, paging Sgt. Tueller...We have someone in dire need of a drill here...
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