Yang Ban Hou's long form

[steelincotton]

The YCF lines in Taiwan are few and far between. There are only a few and they are well known. We actually have more lines from other Yang family members than we do from YCF. So it's likely that YJM's taiji is from a non-YCF lineage. As to it definitely being YBH in origin, I kind of doubt that. Here in Taiwan, people care and cared a lot less what it was called than in the West. My guess is YJM's teacher probably never talked about it. Most old guys consider it irrelevant. But Americans just have to know where it came from, so after YJM supposedly saw a version of YBH's form in China, he decided that his line was also YBH.

Dave C.

You may be right, but I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of that factually speaking. You have to admit, it's kinda strange that YJM's stuff looks very much like some sort of large frame variation, whereas Yang Ban Hou was historically well known for practicing and teaching his small frame style. The two, I do not believe, would look anything like each other at all. I mean, even looking at some of the supposed "small frame" clips we've all seen on youtube today, still, they do not look anything like YJM's stuff, but have at least smaller movement in common betwix them (small frame clips).

Especially considering this little small frame tidbit from Jia Zhixiang:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA36SXkVFKI

Or, this one from Tian Zhaolin's son:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQeXthRy1r

At least these two clips do express, to me anyway, similiar smaller frame expressions, whereas YJM's only seem to reflect larger frame movements. Do I have a point here, or is there a rational reason why his large frame still looks large even though his teacher was supposed to have gotten it from a small frame teacher (ban hou)?

[Robert Young]

The YCF lines in Taiwan are few and far between. There are only a few and they are well known. We actually have more lines from other Yang family members than we do from YCF. So it's likely that YJM's taiji is from a non-YCF lineage. As to it definitely being YBH in origin, I kind of doubt that. Here in Taiwan, people care and cared a lot less what it was called than in the West. My guess is YJM's teacher probably never talked about it. Most old guys consider it irrelevant. But Americans just have to know where it came from, so after YJM supposedly saw a version of YBH's form in China, he decided that his line was also YBH.

Dave C.

You may be right, but I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of that factually speaking. You have to admit, it's kinda strange that YJM's stuff looks very much like some sort of large frame variation, whereas Yang Ban Hou was historically well known for practicing and teaching his small frame style. The two, I do not believe, would look anything like each other at all. I mean, even looking at some of the supposed "small frame" clips we've all seen on youtube today, still, they do not look anything like YJM's stuff, but have at least smaller movement in common betwix them (small frame clips).

Especially considering this little small frame tidbit from Jia Zhixiang:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA36SXkVFKI

Or, this one from Tian Zhaolin's son:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQeXthRy1r

At least these two clips do express, to me anyway, similiar smaller frame expressions, whereas YJM's only seem to reflect larger frame movements. Do I have a point here, or is there a rational reason why his large frame still looks large even though his teacher was supposed to have gotten it from a small frame teacher (ban hou)?

As far as I know, there is no one learned YBH's Tai Chi in Taiwan. Most of Yang's Tai Chi long form came from YCF one way or the other. YJM mentioned who he learned his Tai Chi from when he was young in his book. But, the person he learned from was not even well known in Taiwan.

[kenneth fish]

Having seen the Yang Banhou form from several sources (Wu Mengxia's students, Jane Yao, and another second generation student of Yang Banhou's) as well as the Guang Ping forn (Kuo Lienying and Y.C. Wong) I think it is pretty obvious that YJM is not practicing a version of YBH taji. BTW, Kuo Lienying most certainly did teach YBH taiji in Taiwan, but to only a few students. There were also a couple of teachers in Taichung, but again not a big following and they were kind of closed about showing it.

The form is quite different from the YCF line in both postures and flavor. It is also different from the YSC line that I have seen.

[Robert Young]

BTW, Kuo Lienying most certainly did teach YBH taiji in Taiwan, but to only a few students. There were also a couple of teachers in Taichung, but again not a big following and they were kind of closed about showing it.

Maybe that is why there is no one now in Taiwan claim they practice YBH's Tai Chi. Actually, no even when I started. I know Kuo Lienying practice Tai Chi, but my teacher always refer him as XingYi master. So, in my mind Tai Chi is not Kuo LienYing's major lineage. This is the same mind set applys to myself too. We practice YCF's TaiChi a lot, but we still call ourself LF. Just diferent pespective.

[jjy5016]

Having seen the Yang Banhou form from several sources (Wu Mengxia's students, Jane Yao, and another second generation student of Yang Banhou's) as well as the Guang Ping forn (Kuo Lienying and Y.C. Wong) I think it is pretty obvious that YJM is not practicing a version of YBH taji. BTW, Kuo Lienying most certainly did teach YBH taiji in Taiwan, but to only a few students. There were also a couple of teachers in Taichung, but again not a big following and they were kind of closed about showing it.

The form is quite different from the YCF line in both postures and flavor. It is also different from the YSC line that I have seen.

Hello Dr. Fish,

Kuo taught er lu (the small circle / applications form) to a couple of students in the US, Y.C. Chiang & David Chin among them.
After master Kuo went back to Taiwan for a period he came back and didn't teach it any more. It's very long and intricate unlike the first of the Kuang Ping forms and as far as I know is still only being taught to very few people.

http://www.geocities.com/tibetanhopgar1/taichi.html

[Syd]

I always thought YJM's Yang style was some type of YCF large frame personally ...

[xuesheng]

Another bit of info re Yang Ban Hou.
I practice Chen Pan Ling's 99 forms.
His lineage did not involve Yang Chen Fu and reportedly stems from Yang Ban Hou as well as Wu Chuan Yu (both students of Yang Lu Chan).
His form has a similar layout to the 108 though notable differences. Some of these differences seem to come from Wu and Chen style influences which were part of his education.
The overall layout of the form, however, leads me to believe that Yang Chen Fu modified an earlier form that was probably shorter but relatively long nonetheless.
My teacher tells us that Yang Chen Fu basically added the repetition seen in the 108 to a preexisting form (multiple repetitions of ban lan que, and so on....). In addition we practice a form that has about 59 movements that is somewhat similar to the 108 but is said to predate Yang Chen Fu's modifications - my teacher simply calls it Ancient Style.
The bottom line is, there are no reliable answers when it comes to Taiji history, particularly Yang variants, in my experience.

[neijia_boxer]

There is some kind of phenomenon in psychology where if a car accident were to happen 10 people will see 10 different things. As far as Taijiquan is involved each student who had experience with the Yang family got whatever they did perceive. Some got to be disciples and “got it” others were short time private or public students and got what they received.

A lot of Chinese Kung fu is taught in a “prescription style” based on a persons’ attributes and abilities. That is why Taiji that was taught by Yang Lu chan, Yang pan Hou, Yang Shao Hou and Yang chen Fu all vary. One thing is certain- all the movements in Taijiquan whether Yang, Chen, Wu or Sun for each combat posture, a practitioner goes through has 4 phases, I don’t remember the Chinese but it goes something like this:
1. Starting/Beginning-
2. Turning/rotating
3. Adjusting
4. Finishing/completing.

That is why principles are important and keeping close to the right instructors that really “got it”. Dont forget chinese are very protective about martial arts so they had public, open, and closed door students. The Yang’s supposedly have a book on who the real students of the Yang’s are. I know some of the students of the Old Yang masters and family did reach a high level- 1st son Yang Shou Zhong, Dong Yingjie, Tian Zhaolin, Zhang Qilin, Fu Zhong Wen, to name a few. Some of the other famous Yang notables would include- Chen Weiming, Cheng Man Ching, 2nd and 3rd sons Yang Zhen ji and Yang Zhen Dou.

I guess whoever you study under- buyer beware!