Yang Ban Hou's long form

[SquattingMonkey]

Hi, I am very curious as to the origin of the Yang Ban Hou version of the Yang long form. In my recent research I have found a well known master claim in their article in Tai Chi magazine that Yang Chen Fu was the originator of the Yang long form and that before him there was no Yang style taolu. Instead individual moves or forms were strung togather two or three at a time and drilled. If that is correct and Yang Chen Fu was the creator of the long form then where did the Yang Ban Hou form come from? Did later students of Yang Ban Hou add or learn the taolu from from students of Yang Chen Fu? If so why are there obvious variations from the Yang Ban Hou form to the original Yang Chen Fu form? Thank you in advance for your responses.

[shenme]

According to Yang Jwing Ming his teacher in Taiwan taught the Yang Long that form comes form Yang Banhou not Yang Chengfu. Actually I believe all Dr Yang's Yang style is allegedly from Yang Banhou not Yang Chengfu

[SquattingMonkey]

According to Yang Jwing Ming his teacher in Taiwan taught the Yang Long that form comes form Yang Banhou not Yang Chengfu. Actually I believe all Dr Yang's Yang style is allegedly from Yang Banhou not Yang Chengfu

Hi Shenme, yes I am very aware of this and that is why I ask. I used to study with Dr. Yang about 8-10 years ago and I have been considering relearning the long form, which I haven't practiced for the last 5 years. This still brings us the question where did the Yang Ban Hou liniage get a long form that seems to have been created 2 generations later by Yang Chen Fu? There are some variations between the form Dr. Yang does compared to what Yang Zhengduo does but essentially they appear the same. So unless my source of information is incorrect and Yang Chen Fu was not the creator of the taolu where did Yang Ban Hou's taolu come from?

[ppscat]

Aren't you really refering to the two-partner form? Because it was created by YCF students by connecting drills from YBH, I heard.

[SquattingMonkey]

Aren't you really refering to the two-partner form? Because it was created by YCF students by connecting drills from YBH, I heard.

Hi ppscat, no I am not. I am talking about the solo long form. Ok, let me quote my source for you. In T'ai chi magazine volume 24 issue 5, there is an article written by Yang Fukui and on page 18 it says: "Yang Cheng-fu was a more of a public figure and his desire was to promote the study of Yang style Taijiquan throughout China. Therefore, he created the Taolu which is known in english as "The Long Form." The Long Form Taijiquan set is good for health and for improving the quality of the body's vital energy." So according to this and another source I read but can't remember from where, both claim that it was Yang Cheng Fu who created the solo long form. Earlier in the article it also said and I quote: " Yang Ban Hou and Yang Chen Hou's practices were both somewhat different from each other, as well as from modern practice. I think if they or thier father were alive today and observed modern Taijiquan, they would not recognize much of what we call the Yang style Taijiquan. BF: How did they practice then? YF: First of all, they devoted most of their practice to gongu and martial arts, not to health or "spiritual development." although these two latter aspects certainly underlied their practice. Thier emphasis was different. For example, they never practiced more than a two or three forms or movements in sequence in order to develop fighting skill and gongfu, and they never linked more than five forms together. There were no such things as the 24 or 85 or 108 form Taijiquan. Only two or three forms at a time were used for the solo practice of gongfu."

[shenme]

Aren't you really refering to the two-partner form? Because it was created by YCF students by connecting drills from YBH, I heard.

Hi ppscat, no I am not. I am talking about the solo long form. Ok, let me quote my source for you. In T'ai chi magazine volume 24 issue 5, there is an article written by Yang Fukui and on page 18 it says: "Yang Cheng-fu was a more of a public figure and his desire was to promote the study of Yang style Taijiquan throughout China. Therefore, he created the Taolu which is known in english as "The Long Form." The Long Form Taijiquan set is good for health and for improving the quality of the body's vital energy." So according to this and another source I read but can't remember from where, both claim that it was Yang Cheng Fu who created the solo long form.

This wouldn't happen to be the same Yang Fukui that claimed to be the grandson of Yang Shaohou would it?

If so I would take little of what he says as anything worth listening to.

If it is the same guy he is a charlatan that the Yang family has already openly called a liar on their website

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/For ... 00015.html

And if you read all his claims and check his age compared to when his alleged grandfather died it just died the numbers just don't add up.

If it is a different Yang Fukui my apologies for the inference

[SquattingMonkey]

Aren't you really refering to the two-partner form? Because it was created by YCF students by connecting drills from YBH, I heard.

Hi ppscat, no I am not. I am talking about the solo long form. Ok, let me quote my source for you. In T'ai chi magazine volume 24 issue 5, there is an article written by Yang Fukui and on page 18 it says: "Yang Cheng-fu was a more of a public figure and his desire was to promote the study of Yang style Taijiquan throughout China. Therefore, he created the Taolu which is known in english as "The Long Form." The Long Form Taijiquan set is good for health and for improving the quality of the body's vital energy." So according to this and another source I read but can't remember from where, both claim that it was Yang Cheng Fu who created the solo long form.

This wouldn't happen to be the same Yang Fukui that claimed to be the grandson of Yang Shaohou would it?

If so I would take little of what he says as anything worth listening to.

If it is the same guy he is a charlatan that the Yang family has already openly called a liar on their website

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/For ... 00015.html

And if you read all his claims and check his age compared to when his alleged grandfather died it just died the numbers just don't add up.

If it is a different Yang Fukui my apologies for the inference

Well in that case I may just have a lot of egg on my face! I don't know if he is the same guy. He teaches in NYC and I have been to his website and he and his students look really top-notch. They do Tongbei, Xingyi, Fanziquan, Bagua, as well as Chen and Yang style Taijiquan. He also claims to have learned Yiquan from students of Wang Xianghai like Zhao Daoxin. He says his grandfather was Yang Zhen Xiang. His school is called Xin Yi Wu Guan, Heart Mind Martial Arts. IF you go to his website he has links to articles you can read from a few different issues of T'ai Chi magazine as well as Inside Kung-Fu magazine and he has a link you can go to to view him and his students on youtube. He appears to be very knowledgable and well trained in the arts to me. here is his link http://www.xinyiwuguan.com/main.html#

[SquattingMonkey]

I belive they are one and the same person but in his article he claims that Yang Xiao Hou was his great-grandfather and that his grandfather was Yang Zhen Shang the same as listed on his website. I don't know if he changed that info recently or if Yang Zhenduo was unaware of his claim to Yang Xiao Hou as his great-grandson. Either way I retract my original post here due to gullability and ignorance and humbly bow out. Exit stage left.

[jjy5016]

They are the same person and I believe that his late student, Dr. Bob Feldman might have had something to do with the shall we say, misinterpretations of the truth that appeared in those articles.

But anyway....

The Kuang Ping Yang taiji system is supposed to come from Yang Ban Hou. You can read the history of it on any number of websites. There are two forms, a set of zhan zhuangs, pushing hands and I believe a sword set that goes along with it. The stances are generally 60 / 40 weighted not unlike san ti and the style is supposed to be a hybrid of Chen and Yang.

FWIW

John

[cdobe]

Hi ppscat, no I am not. I am talking about the solo long form. Ok, let me quote my source for you. In T'ai chi magazine volume 24 issue 5, there is an article written by Yang Fukui and on page 18 it says: "Yang Cheng-fu was a more of a public figure and his desire was to promote the study of Yang style Taijiquan throughout China. Therefore, he created the Taolu which is known in english as "The Long Form." The Long Form Taijiquan set is good for health and for improving the quality of the body's vital energy." So according to this and another source I read but can't remember from where, both claim that it was Yang Cheng Fu who created the solo long form. Earlier in the article it also said and I quote: " Yang Ban Hou and Yang Chen Hou's practices were both somewhat different from each other, as well as from modern practice. I think if they or thier father were alive today and observed modern Taijiquan, they would not recognize much of what we call the Yang style Taijiquan. BF: How did they practice then? YF: First of all, they devoted most of their practice to gongu and martial arts, not to health or "spiritual development." although these two latter aspects certainly underlied their practice. Thier emphasis was different. For example, they never practiced more than a two or three forms or movements in sequence in order to develop fighting skill and gongfu, and they never linked more than five forms together. There were no such things as the 24 or 85 or 108 form Taijiquan. Only two or three forms at a time were used for the solo practice of gongfu."

How do you explain that the two Wu styles that were created from Yang Luchan's students all have long forms? And all those forms have a very similar sequence?

[JoseFreitas]

How do you explain that the two Wu styles that were created from Yang Luchan's students all have long forms? And all those forms have a very similar sequence?

Exactly. That's what I was thinking. Also, Zhaobao. Or some of the recently unearthed semi-Wu forms, like the QuanYouLaoJia form that Wang Bo teaches and seems to come straight out of the 19th century? I think that the evidence is very much that some sort of Long Form already existed by the time of Yang Luchan. This is not to say that they did not spend a lot of time doing single-technique drilling, or short sequence training, but they certainly did long forms, even if they were less of the curriculum than they are today. In fact, many teacher do that. My own teacher usually says that when practicing, one shouldn't focus on applications, but one should construct short sequences of 2-5 moves, and drill them right and left, and that's where you should focus on apps. So this sort of training is orthodox in Taiji. But forms probably already existed by the time of Yang Luchan.

[iwalkthecircle]

FWIW Chang TCC is the Original Young TCC long form.....

[shenme]

I belive they are one and the same person but in his article he claims that Yang Xiao Hou was his great-grandfather and that his grandfather was Yang Zhen Shang the same as listed on his website. I don't know if he changed that info recently or if Yang Zhenduo was unaware of his claim to Yang Xiao Hou as his great-grandson. Either way I retract my original post here due to gullability and ignorance and humbly bow out. Exit stage left.

Its the same guy and I made the type-o he claimed great grandfather and he also at one point claimed trainng with his great grandfather and the numbers do not add up there. And neither do his glaims to grandfather and father.

Sorry but per the Yang family he is a fake and from what I have read of his claims and from what I know of Yang familiy history I agree he is a fake.

I would not beleive anything he said about Yang stlye

And as is already being talked about by others.

Where does Yang come from? Chen

Yang Luchan learned a rather long Chen form if my memory is correct. It was later shortened by the chen family long after Yang Luchan.

What Yang Chengfu did was remove a lot of obvious Fajing but I do not think he did much to lengthen the form.

[mixjourneyman]

Just as a note, breaking down forms into two or three small movements is just about the most useful thing you can do with your taijiquan IMHO

[ninepalace]

i agree w/ mixjourneyman et al in theory and in practice. but don't take our words for it...

Robert W. Smith's "martial musings" recounts his notes from Cheng Man Ch'ing: "all yang chengfu did was a little push-hands and some form, mainly endless repetitions of single whip, guitar, and repulse monkey."

and apropos of there being no yang style taolu, nejia_boxer's google video had a nice clip of Fu ZhongWen saying that back in the day there was no yang style or wu style etc, there was just taiji.