Root - does it exist?

[Walk the Torque]

"How do you become nimble in footwork and adept at change if you spend most of your time developing immovability?"

Ian,
As I said on the other thread, learning to root properly actually assists in the act of nimbility

The very fact that you can transfer forces (forces of gravity, opponants force, force of heavy weapons) and channel them into your base, giving you great stabilty, means that as you start trying to be nimble you are already at an advantage in that any contact with the ground coupled with the forces of momentum and gravity acting on your body can be skillfully negotiated to assist in giving you the best possible results in your attempt at nimbleness.

In short the fine tuning of balance gained from training root will greatly enhance agility.

As to your original question............does it matter if it exists or not if you can make use of it?

[Dmitri]

I believe the original question of this thread can be answered by the following analogy:

Do not try to bend the spoon; that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth. [What truth?] There is no spoon. Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

I'm being almost completely serious.

[kreese]

Right on, Ian.

I'm wondering - where does the term "root" come from? Is there a Chinese word for "root"? Is the term used in the classics?

[ninepalace]

Can you train your qi to physically extend beyond your feet into the ground?

let's say someone w/ a great root claims they are doing exactly this. kumar frantzis is one.

if he were to stand on an inflexible plank 1/2in think suspended over thin air, do you think his root would be diminished any? i rather doubt that.

many people can neutralize a strong incoming force and not be pushed over. i've posted before my experience w/ henry wang who can do this but also can not be PULLED over despite my greatest effort.
one of his students can replicate this slightly. it is done by relaxing, sinking, and maintaining a globe shape in your posture. we did experiments w/ this while i was pulling. the greater his globe shape conformation, the harder he was to pull over.

[Areios]

Hey, talk to Areios AKA Tom Bombadil. He's the one talking about different types of tree

hahahahaha

[dragontigerpalm]

i should qualify by saying that the idea of "2 to 1" forms the basis of ILC's physical method, but over all, attention is the true foundation of ILC.

going back to you last question ian... i'm not really sure how to answer that question. of course we do, but the flip side is that we rarely, if ever, actually use the term "root". we have a lot of other concepts and principles that when put into action basically equals "root" but i think in 6 years i've heard my Sifu mention root maybe once, and i don't think i ever use the term when teaching.

a lot of it is because my Sifu wants to make sure we stay mobile and not stuck to the floor.

One exercise that Sifu gave me to do a while ago for this purpose is to envision running in place which involves rapid absorb/project and all the qualities and planes found in the bobbing and spinning exercise.

[josh]

Right on, Ian.

I'm wondering - where does the term "root" come from? Is there a Chinese word for "root"? Is the term used in the classics?

I've been wondering the same thing, I often hear people talk about "strong root," "being rooted," or "rooting," and I don't think that I've ever come across a direct Chinese equivalent for these concepts, either from my teachers or in books. You may say that someone has a "strong horse" or good "lower basin gongfu," meaning that they are very stable/balanced and hard to take down, but these terms don't seem to suggest immobility in the same way as "root."
There is the saying "the root is in the foot, it is emitted by the legs, and controlled by the waist," 根於腳，發於腿，主宰於腰 but this just means that the generation of power begins with the feet, I don't think that "root" in this case has the same connotation as the topic of this thread.
Maybe it is related to the admonition "stand like a pine tree" 站如松 found in many Northern styles?

[Muirarama]

I've always understood rooting as a few people have already said - lining up your body/skeleton so as to channel force into the gound. But I don't think it happens entirely inside your own body.

Depending on the angle of the force you're trying to channel you'll need some friction at the point of contact with the ground. Here's my high school physics analysis: Wherever your foot is pressing on the ground you draw an arrow down into the ground indicating the angle and strength of the force you are applying. According to Newton's mechanics the fact that the earth does not accelerate away from your pressing foot means that whatever component of your pressing is going straight down will be returned - pushing straight up on you. If there's enough friction your foot will stay where it is and the sideways component of your pressing will also be returned through your body for you to use in whatever devious ways you have. But if there's no friction then the sideways component of your pressing keeps going and you do the splits.

Personally, I think rooting any force besides a straight up and down one would be damn near impossible on ice (unless you had crampons). There's actually a verse in Li ZiMing and Vince Black's "Liang Style 8 Diagram Palm" book that, paraphrased, says not to pivot your feet on slippery, icy terrain. Rather you should lift and place them. From my own (limited and Texan) experience with icy ground I found it to be good advice.

[ashe]

we say that in order to neutralize and redirect incoming force you first need to "catch the tip of the spear". so the foundation of that is "absorb and project" by which you make "2 to 1" or in other words, you make it as if the point of contact and the center of the foot were one point. then when the opponent applies force to the point it's as if he's pushing the floor instead of a person.

Does that mean that you have to establish a "ground path" before you neutralize?

well, we don't use that term, but as i understand the use of that term (ground path), basically i would say it's a similar concept.

[josh]

To address the original question, I found this nice statement in Tim Cartmell's discussion of the concepts "song" (loose/relaxed) and "chen" (sinking) in the book Xing Yi Nei Gong:

With true relaxation and sinking, one will feel both "heavy" (rooted stably to the ground) and "light" (with agile ease of movement) at the same time. In this state, one is balanced and powerful while motion seems almost without effort.

[roger hao]

In glisee sports it seems that the concept of edge has a parallel to the root concept here.
I teach snoboarding and alignment is important thru the body structure to the edge contact.
Proper alignment brings more weight to bear on the edge and subsequently lowers the COG
below the surface of the snow producing fine carving.

[Ben]

Rooting is building a connection to the gound. It doesn't mean stationary, thats just how you start to learn it. Its a skill with a corrosponding feeling and thats about it.

[cdobe]

we say that in order to neutralize and redirect incoming force you first need to "catch the tip of the spear". so the foundation of that is "absorb and project" by which you make "2 to 1" or in other words, you make it as if the point of contact and the center of the foot were one point. then when the opponent applies force to the point it's as if he's pushing the floor instead of a person.

Does that mean that you have to establish a "ground path" before you neutralize?

well, we don't use that term, but as i understand the use of that term (ground path), basically i would say it's a similar concept.

Then I guess our respective methods (or concepts) of neutralization are different
I would describe the tactic just the other way around. First, pass the tip of the spear, letting it run into emptiness, and the use a strong structure with a "ground path" to counterattack.

CD

[Dweezle]

"Does root exist, or is it just a convenient label?

Can you train your qi to physically extend beyond your feet into the ground?

If an expert at rooting stands on a friction-less or low-friction surface, such as melting ice, he should still be immovable if there is really something extending beyond his feet.

Your thoughts?"

I would say no, you cannot train your "Qi" to extend beyond your feet, no more than you could use the Jedi's "force" to choke another person out, with one caveat: You would have to define 'Qi' properly first, and then go one step further into proving it's existence in the context you are describing, otherwise---no, you can't.

Root is a good concept though once you remove any metaphysical BS, or generic ancient terminology. If you direct force into the ground utilizing proper physiokinetic alignment, and your are as others have mentioned; relaxed, centered, ect, the force will be directed in an optimal manner that will allow for the most power output and the minimal taxation on your structure. Additionally if you refer to Newtons third law you will notice any force generated needs to be stabilized by a counterforce.

[ashe]

Then I guess our respective methods (or concepts) of neutralization are different
I would describe the tactic just the other way around. First, pass the tip of the spear, letting it run into emptiness, and the use a strong structure with a "ground path" to counterattack.

if i ask you what my shirt feels like, how can you answer until you touch it?

force is the same way. if you're going to neutralize it, how do you know what your neutralizing without contacting it first?