Slow vs Fast

[DeusTrismegistus]

I was wondering what you guys thought on the pros and cons of training slow vs training fast and everything in between. Do you do slow training? Do you train fast? How do you think each benefits you? I have my own ideas but I don't have time to make a big post right now. Just want to hear some opinions.

[Walk the Torque]

Don't have time for a big post either but,

Slow is always good to go back to to soften up again. Added to this is the refinement. Training slow really allows you to feel whats going on in your movements. Training too slow all the time with no fast can turn you into a wet noodle.

Training fast is good for the mind too. You have to get used to opperating at a certain speed (and intensity) in order to maintain flow and presence of mind at that rate.

[Darthwing Teorist]

In our school, we do slow training to ingrain proper reflexes and structure in the body. Fast training is done mainly to test how we react under stress.

Fast practice all the time can amplify bad reflexes due to the flinching reflex. Slow practice all the time will disconnect you from reality which is really ghey.

Hard and soft are other aspects of training, independent from the slow-fast continuum. They can be combined in various ways: slow-soft, slow-hard, fast-soft, fast-hard and various degrees in between.



PS:

You also have solo and partner work for even more combinations (that includes multiple partners).

[ppscat]

In Wu Style, Master Liu Ji Fa says that in the past "teachers would first start a student learning the Wu style fast form, to get students familiar with the fastest movements and applications, and then they would teach them the slow form. Students would really cultivate and hone their skills in the slow form so they could feel the dan tian control the body’s movements."

http://www.doubledragonalliance.com/ (articles section)

IME, in social dance and guitar playing you can learn the (‘internal’) subtleties only after mastering timing. Just the opposite of my (Yang) Taiji learning path.

Interesting isn’t it?


.

[Bao]

In Wu Style, Master Liu Ji Fa says that in the past "teachers would first start a student learning the Wu style fast form, to get students familiar with the fastest movements and applications, and then they would teach them the slow form. IME, in social dance and guitar playing you can learn the (‘internal’) subtleties only after mastering timing. Just the opposite of my (Yang) Taiji learning path.

Interesting isn’t it?

It's perfectly logic. Taijiquan is a martial art. Every Martial art needs to have a quick learning process. You can't wait ten or more years before you can use it to fight. You can be in a fight or in a war tomorrow, so you need to learn some basic fighting methods as soon as possible. The same thing goes for weaponry. The basics of the dao, or broadsword, was learned by everyone. Anyone could learn to handle it fast. But the jian takes more skill, so you need to have a dao first, then you have time to learn the more advanced weapon.

[Dweezle]

I was wondering what you guys thought on the pros and cons of training slow vs training fast and everything in between. Do you do slow training? Do you train fast? How do you think each benefits you? I have my own ideas but I don't have time to make a big post right now. Just want to hear some opinions.

Both, slow isolates mechanical issues and highlights other technical problems, it is also very relaxing to do, and may even help ingrain the movement deeper into the psyche. Fast movements are necessary if you want actual Martial usage, the old adage, train as you fight and fight as you train hold true. I would go a step further than just saying train "fast" and say the adrenal response also needs to be induced during fast movement training on occasion, and unplanned attack/response drills should be done with proper protection of course.

Everything in between is also required. The slow should be incrementally increased to fast as competency increases....

My .02 cents...

Dweeze

[Mut]

both....
often we start slow increase in speed until just before failure then slow down and work up again. increases the comfort zone and skill.... though sometimes we go beyond failure to work on stressed training and the like and sometimes we just train slow (but that is mostly without a partner)

[Bhassler]

Deus,

Slow vs. Fast has different implications depending on what you're training. Skill? Strength? Courage? What in particular did you have in mind?

[DeusTrismegistus]

Deus,

Slow vs. Fast has different implications depending on what you're training. Skill? Strength? Courage? What in particular did you have in mind?

Well I was thinking in relation mainly to form work, push hands, sparring, etc. I am mainly wondering what attributes or abilities are gained or worked with the different methods.

[river rider]

In my form training practice sessions I often start with a fast (faster) and light form or forms. Its a great transition for slowing down when coming from other activities and circumstances. You catch a rhythm, get into alignment, and make a smoother transition into the details of the slow form. I find faster practice very useful in the repeated practice of single movements and linked groups of movements, very helpful in understanding the fuller meaning of a movement, and a more useful speed to explore the range of useful variations of given movements or sequences.

[bigphatwong]

I was wondering what you guys thought on the pros and cons of training slow vs training fast and everything in between. Do you do slow training? Do you train fast? How do you think each benefits you? I have my own ideas but I don't have time to make a big post right now. Just want to hear some opinions.

Deus,

the way I was taught to drill Xingyi is at three speeds: Slow-Slow, Slow-Fast and Fast-Fast. Slow-Slow is just that... long setup, and slow execution with lots of attention to detail. Slow-Fast (which is mostly the level I prefer to practice at) is a long setup with a fast execution, in other words combat speed. Fast-Fast is where you kind of let it all fall apart if you will and allow the moves to be "sucked" out of you by the intention.

So of course it can be done slow, fast, and everything else. There are lots of different ways to practice.

[Interloper]

When I first studied piano, I always was anxious to race through a piece because I wanted to play and hear it in its "finished" form. But without having first wired in each step of the process, each note and pause, practicing everything fast was always disasterous. My teacher threatened to make me practice under water, so the water density would slow me down!

Going back over scales, arpegios, and pieces slowly was absolutely crucial to learning each and every note and movement, on step at a time. Every time you go through something slowly, correctly, it wires into your brain and nervous system a little bit more. Then you can increase the pace because the liklihood is greater that you'll hit the correct note, with the correct form and timing.

On a whole-body scale such as in MAs, it's the same thing IMO. Whenever I have rushed through something it has been as disasterous as were my arpegios when I did not have the patience to slowly and painstakingly "walk it through" to inculcate the method and movement.

[SPJ]

There are 2 general aspects.

1 learning and practicing aspect.

We have to break down moves into sequences of parts. For example, in qin na or shuai jiao, even thou we have to execute everything in an instant, but for practicing purpose, we may initially break them down into step 1. 2. 3 etc.

Once we are familiar with each part, then we practice to do everthing as fast as we can.

2. tactics and strategy

Most of time, we may win and defeat the opponents by being faster.

However, if the opponent is somehow faster than us, we have to do some slower moves to take back the initiative.

Be slower in starting or initiating or move away away his first or first few moves and gain advantage somehow to start our counter move or move earlier than his next move.

--

In Tai Chi, however, we like the precept of following the opponent. In that case, if the opponent is fast, we are fast. If he is slow, we are slow.

which is very difficult to do, and beat the opponent at his own move.

--

Just to add some thoughts.

[ppscat]

When I first studied piano, I always was anxious to race through a piece because I wanted to play and hear it in its "finished" form. But without having first wired in each step of the process, each note and pause, practicing everything fast was always disasterous. My teacher threatened to make me practice under water, so the water density would slow me down!

Going back over scales, arpegios, and pieces slowly was absolutely crucial to learning each and every note and movement, on step at a time. Every time you go through something slowly, correctly, it wires into your brain and nervous system a little bit more. Then you can increase the pace because the liklihood is greater that you'll hit the correct note, with the correct form and timing.

On a whole-body scale such as in MAs, it's the same thing IMO. Whenever I have rushed through something it has been as disasterous as were my arpegios when I did not have the patience to slowly and painstakingly "walk it through" to inculcate the method and movement.

Hi Interloper, maybe I was not clear enough. First learn the moves slowly, of course, but then don't stuck only on the slow mode cause fast training gives you another sensation with many insights. That's the same regarding music and dance, IME.

[DeusTrismegistus]

I love the music analogy Interloper. I played the violin in school and it was much the same.

I have always thought that the learning happens at slow speeds, but what most people call slow and what some rare people call slow are two different things.

What brought this question about is one of my teacher's blackbelts returned to class, he is a international san shou champ and national san shou champ. I hadn't seen him in about 8 years or so. Well we started sparring and he was going extremely slow. He was taking around 30 seconds to take a single step or throw a single punch. I started trying to follow suit. I have practiced that slowly before but it had been a long time and I had forgotten just how beneficial it could be. First thing I noticed was how tense I was. Which this surprised me because going normal slow and medium speeds I felt very relaxed. Going slow slow really brought out where unnecessary tension was in my body. It is also much more difficult to stay balanced. You really learn how to stay balanced all the time, even in the middle of a step. One of the most important things I noticed was the vision. Going this slowly you can really see what you are doing in a lot of detail and what someone else is doing in a lot of detail.

Later in class we watched my teacher and the blackbelt spar. They started off at the really slow speed. It was really awesome watching the small minute changes in body position and footwork as they constantly changed and adapted to each other. They slowly sped up to a good medium speed and the best part was that now I could see the small changes from when they were going slow, they were still there at the faster pace.

Now going normal slow is good for learning new moves. Like the music analogy you learn slow and then you speed it up once you have the ingrained movement. When you go faster you have to practice on keeping your mind calm at higher speed, maintaining your balance, staying relaxed, reacting quickly, and keeping the same technique as when you practice slowly. Going really slow shows you excess tension, teaches you to balance, teaches you to relax, teaches you to use alignment and not muscle, trains your vision, and trains your focus. Going fast fast, real fight fast, shows you how much is ingrained. There is not time to think there is only time to do, what you do and how you perform tells you how much you have progressed and gained from your slower practice. It tells you if something is trained to the point of fluency or not.

For now thats the best I can explain it.