It's a Ming thing ...

[salcanzonieri]

The story that Chen comes from Gen Qi's book is a crock of crap.

and the fact that Chen Wangtin had an army training also crap?

That has nothing to do with it, he wasn't in the army during General Qi's time period, and even General Qi's soldiers didn't use this "form" that is shown in the book (it's not even a form, but a collection of "common" techniques found in 16 different Ming dynasty styles, that he said essentially are all related in some way since they share so much.

[salcanzonieri]

For those unfamiliar with Jarek's research, he also analyzed that correlation, a long time ago:
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji ... nuals.html

No kidding, that was the inspiration for me to make a chart showing how all the different sets link up.

I can make one that links up sequential movements and postures from ba gua and XY and ba fan shou and Luohan.
I have all the information at hand, just no time to make the table.
Anyone that wants to meet up, please do, and I can show you in person.

[ppscat]

Hi Salcanzonieri, great job congratulations! Perhaps you could sometime edit a videoclip with both chen and tai tzu form performances running at the same time, freezing the shaolin whenever chen's have filled in postures.

[salcanzonieri]

My guess is Chen Wang Ting was exposed to Shaolin Tai Tzu through the military. Some disagree with me though, because Shaolin Tai tzu was pretty wide spread in that whole area by then.

Either way, just by LOOKING at the Chen style set it is clear Chen Wang Ting knew Tai Tzu Chang Chuan well enough to have learned the sequence of the form. This is significant because forms were primarily taught last in those days.

Also, both major taiji styles of the time (Chen & Zhao Bao) are totally all built on all the techniques found in the Tai tzu style, specifically the sets Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, Lao Hong Chuan, Da Hong Chuan.

The Chen Yi Lu is not JUST a reworking of Tai Zu Chang Quan Yi Lu.
It has also sequences from the Xiao Hong Quan Yi Lu AND Er Lu sets, which dates the creation of the presently existing Chen Yi Lu sets, because the Xiao Hong Quan set was created at end of Yuan/early Ming time period and the Er Lu set was created in the early Qing dynasty era.

So, the Chen yi Lu that exists today absorbed material from Shaolin sets sometime in the early Qing era at the earliest, which does place it in time exactly when Chen Wang Ting developed Chen TJQ.

Zhao Bao might be older, or at the least Small Frame might be older (again as Jarek already pointed out), or at least the material that small frame absorbed, because the small frame Chen as does the Zhao Bao style does movements as done in the Shaolin Rou Quan sets, which is much older than Qing Dynasty.

[salcanzonieri]

Hi Salcanzonieri, great job congratulations! Perhaps you could sometime edit a videoclip with both chen and tai tzu form performances running at the same time, freezing the shaolin whenever chen's have filled in postures.

that's a good idea, but I can fill in the postures with the movements from the hong quan sets that were used to fill ini postures.

What I need is time and someone to fill me.

I'll gladly meet up with a group of people if they want and show how things link up.

The interesting thing is that the sequences where there are the kicks involved in the Chen Yi lu, the happen in exactly the same order and the same way as in the Shaolin Hong Quan Er Lu set, then it switches back to the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan set.

[Royal Dragon]

Which Shaolin Hong Chuan? There are a bunch of them.

[salcanzonieri]

Which Shaolin Hong Chuan? There are a bunch of them.

Not the Lao Hong, the Xiao and Da double set that is from late yaun/early ming times.

[cdobe]

Here's my correspondence table that shows EXACTLY how each move in the Chen Yi lu (of today, since that's all we have to go by) follows exactly the Shaolin TZ Quan that has been preserved in henan area since before the Ming dynasty.

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAart ... nChart.htm

My table is being published in China in a new publication on possible origins of TJQ being printed now.
They told me that they can't believe how it is most obvious and all this time it was staring them in the face and they didn't know to look there.

Sal,
I wonder what the point of this table is. What does it mean for example when techniques appear in the same row ?
When I look at my Wu2 Taiji for example and compare it to the long form of Yang style, I find that the sequence and the techniques are corresponding quite well, although in some rows you would have to indicate that the techniques don't match. You can also match Wu3 and Sun style with Wu2 and Yang, but to a much lesser degree. If you used colors for example, say green for matching and red for 'not matching', there would be a lot of red already. Now if you take Yang and Wu2 and try to match it with Chen Taiji most of the rows would be red. You would only have a green row here and there inbetween (e.g. the Opening or Cloudhands). OTOH, I can easily take single movements from other arts like Bajiquan, Baguazhang, but also from Indonesian Silat or Japanese arts and match them with Taiji movements.
So I wonder about the criteria you use to put such a table together.

Thanks
CD

Hmm? The techniques that are in the same row are ones that ARE matching up, in posture and in function. Sometimes that posture is slightly different (stylistic differences, like languages have dialects) but in application and functionality, etc, they are the same. The table would be 90% green.

It's the fact that the movements of the different sets match in the same SEQUENTIAL order not just that their postures match (otherwise, sure you can find matching postures between any styles, the human body can only do so much. What makes it different is that the SEQUENCE of movements and postures is the same, that can not be coincidence).
This is what attracted the researchers in China to the table, that almost the whole sequence of movements matches between sets, from most primitive to most advanced way of moving. From proto-typical in the Shaolin Nei Gong and Tong Bei movements to typical in the TJQ movements.

From comparing the different Taiji styles alone I could easily demonstrate that this is not the case. If i take Wu2 TJQ (which doesn't have "Yi Lu" in the first place!) and compare it to Chen TJQ Yi Lu, I find that the first matching row is the Preparation, the next one would be Single Whip. And that's how it goes on: a green row here and there with long sequences between them that don't match at all. Looking at the 'Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan 32 postures set' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHBq9M-9F2E) which is supposed to be exactly like Chen TJQ (?), I see some movements like in the Chen TJQ (like the one on Jarek's site), but almost nothing that resembles Wu2 TJQ.
I think that the table in it's present form is very problematic and implies a lot of similarities that are simply not there. Take the first row for example. It begins all with 'Preparation'. The problem is that it's the same name, but not the same movement. Only the TJQ preparations are more or less the same. So, to me this table isn't convincing.


CD

[salcanzonieri]

yeah, the Wu(2) set throws in extra moves, but the whole set still follows the Yang set, and that follows the Chen set.

It's not like the Wu(2) set has a completely different order of movements, it clearly doesn't. It just has some extra movements that it repeats often, such as doing Strum the Lute all the time, it's just using certain moves as transitional movements.

It's not a completely different set, Chen, Yang, Wu(1), Wu(2), Sun, etc, obviously are following the same general sequence of movements, then they add in their particular stylistic differences.

Plus, if you look across the row, when Wu(2) is doing something not found in the Chen set, it is found in a Shaolin Chi Gung set.

And the preparation movement in ALL these sets is really the same, as you move away from TJQ the movements are more exaggerated and more circular, but the function and applications are the same as in TJQ.

When I can get the time to film or find film clips, I will illustrate each movement in each style so that they can be compared and contrasted.

It's never been said by anyone that the Chen, Yang, Wu(1), Wu(2), Sun sets are "different" sets, but on the contrary, people recognize that these sets are following the same general sequence, all the single whips and white crane spread wings happen at the same place in each set for example, with variations in the sets between each other that naturally develop over time and with various people's personally preference and stylistic influences (shuai Jiao for one Wu, for example).

If I play a cover of a pop song (let's say Bing Crosby's White Christmas), and add a country music flavor by throwing in some country licks in between the changes in the arrangement, you can still recognize that song. I didn't change the order of the arrangement and made a totally different song out of it (that's using a song only as an influence on a new song). People can still tell it is "White Christmas", and they can tell there's a country music influence, but the arrangement of the song is still the same.

[cdobe]

Further, the first SIX movements/ postures (everything before “Brush Knee Twist Step” in TJQ) in ALL the various sets are exactly mechanically and functionally identical, including the initial preparation salute movements.

Source: http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticleComparisonChart.htm


This would be my comparison of Wu2, Yang and Chen TJQ.

[salcanzonieri]

Further, the first SIX movements/ postures (everything before “Brush Knee Twist Step” in TJQ) in ALL the various sets are exactly mechanically and functionally identical, including the initial preparation salute movements.

Source: http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticleComparisonChart.htm


This would be my comparison of Wu2, Yang and Chen TJQ.

Okay, understood.

it's not just postures that are compared, but the function of the movement where you are at that particular point in the sets.

For example, at the point of the sets, Raise Hand is done by Yang and the subsequent styles that came from Yang, at THAT point in the Chen set, Chen does Turn left and Pound Mortar. This movement includes Raise hands in it first, then the "mortar is pounded" happens, a and b. The Yang and post Yang sets take out the Pound Mortar, but you are at the same point in the sets at that time and they have similar applications, the function of the movements are the same.
Chen gets the pound mortar from the other sets that are shown to the right of the Chen column, in that row.

I am showing evolution in the table as well, what's same, what's different.

You miss the point of the table, not that "everything" is the same, but that looking at each column, the table as a whole, you can see that in ESSENCE, all these styles are functionally following along the same path (with some slight detours, but each style goes back on this path).

Its a road map, showing that these styles are all interrelated and all follow the same road (top to bottom), and all stem from the same ancestral sources, which is shown as you move from left to right on the chart.

[salcanzonieri]

If I had videos ready, most interesting, going from right to left, is that you can see the evolution of the "preparation" movement.

In Shaolin it was done more circular, and it got more linear til you get to the far left column of that row.

In tong bei, it was done very much like somewhere between Shaolin and how Yang TJQ does it now.