It's a Ming thing ...

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

It's a Ming thing ...

Postby Syd on Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:53 am

Just thought some of you may find this of interest ... see if you can guess the postures before looking at the names at the bottom of the page.

The Ming imperial general Qi Jiguan (1528-1587) claimed to have collected and surveyed about sixteen both ancient and contemporary boxing styles, and synthesized them into a thirty two-posture form intended for troop training. Tang Hao and Gu liuxin listed twenty-nine postures from Qi's Classic of Pugilism that can be found in the Chen Family forms, along the language paralleling that in the Classic.


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A. Too Lazy Tucking in the Robe. B. Golden Cock Stands on One Leg. C. Aim for the Crotch. D. Dragon Alights on the Ground.
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby Royal Dragon on Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:07 pm

I know some Tai Tzu people who know that set (called the 32 Killing Fists at the old Nanjing Kuo shou academy). It is NOTHING like Chen taiji. I think the Chen just happen to have similar names for thier postures.

The Chen postures match exactly by the Shaolin 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan though. Somehow through the ages, the Qi Jiguang set got confused with the Shaolin 32 Tai tzu set.

Today, with mass communication and all, it is easy to see that error though.

Tai Chi, of any branch is clearly built on the Tai Tzu system (Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, Lao Hong Chuan, Da Hong Chuan and several secondary sets).
Last edited by Royal Dragon on Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:33 pm

The story that Chen comes from Gen Qi's book is a crock of crap.

They searched through the book looking for postures that reminded them of some Chen postures and "glued" the story altogether to make things fit.

VERY clearly the real Chen Yi lu set follows the SAME sequences and postures, in the same order as the Shaolin tai Zu Chang Quan set.

Bullshiters ang Hao and Gu liuxin read that Chen was based on Tai Zu Quan from the Chen family papers but didn't know what Tai Zu Quan looked like, so since they knew that Gen Qi's book was famous for mentioning tai zu Quan, they used those illustrations (which aren't all even for TZ, some are for fan zi quan) instead. Hence they could only find "29" of the 32.

Here's my correspondence table that shows EXACTLY how each move in the Chen Yi lu (of today, since that's all we have to go by) follows exactly the Shaolin TZ Quan that has been preserved in henan area since before the Ming dynasty.

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAart ... nChart.htm

My table is being published in China in a new publication on possible origins of TJQ being printed now.
They told me that they can't believe how it is most obvious and all this time it was staring them in the face and they didn't know to look there.
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby Syd on Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:25 pm

Excellent stuff gents ... I was not privy to the controversy on this since I am not a Chen Stylist and have not done much research on that side of things ... I am however well aware of the Shaolin Tai Tzu sets and quite agree. I posted the above more because I like seeing the old postures but did not know the story regarding the text one way or the other as right or wrong.

Cheers!.
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby cdobe on Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:04 am

salcanzonieri wrote:Here's my correspondence table that shows EXACTLY how each move in the Chen Yi lu (of today, since that's all we have to go by) follows exactly the Shaolin TZ Quan that has been preserved in henan area since before the Ming dynasty.

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAart ... nChart.htm

My table is being published in China in a new publication on possible origins of TJQ being printed now.
They told me that they can't believe how it is most obvious and all this time it was staring them in the face and they didn't know to look there.


Sal,
I wonder what the point of this table is. What does it mean for example when techniques appear in the same row ?
When I look at my Wu2 Taiji for example and compare it to the long form of Yang style, I find that the sequence and the techniques are corresponding quite well, although in some rows you would have to indicate that the techniques don't match. You can also match Wu3 and Sun style with Wu2 and Yang, but to a much lesser degree. If you used colors for example, say green for matching and red for 'not matching', there would be a lot of red already. Now if you take Yang and Wu2 and try to match it with Chen Taiji most of the rows would be red. You would only have a green row here and there inbetween (e.g. the Opening or Cloudhands). OTOH, I can easily take single movements from other arts like Bajiquan, Baguazhang, but also from Indonesian Silat or Japanese arts and match them with Taiji movements.
So I wonder about the criteria you use to put such a table together.

Thanks
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby SPJ on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:35 am

Everything has to be considered within a context.

1. tying coat lazily is a starting posture in many styles, since in the old time, you do have to raise your lower garment and tie around your waist to start practicing or fighting. But in Tai Ji, the hand movement and posture is the opposite of the single whip posture. If one is to guard your left and the other is to guard your right or vice versa. since you may do either left or right TCL and also either left or right single whip. so TCL is not unique. But TCL also has some qi gong aspect.

2. standing one leg and the name golden rooster/pheasant standing one leg, both name and posture are not unique, they exist in many styles and qi gong set, such as ba gua zhang, white crane--

the variation in Tai Ji, some use upward piercing palm (chuan zhang), some upward lifting palm (tuo zhang)--

the leg move may turn into knee strike or kick etc. when you put the leg down is to practice stomping or zhen jiao--

when you lower your hand, it may turn into pushing palm or an or tui zhang.

3. there are hitting at 3 levels fist in Tai Ji and many other styles but with a different "ways/flavors". hitting the heart, hitting the groin or zhi dang chui (pic 3), hitting lower ground or ji di chui etc. In Tai Ji, we step forward, and rotate our waist, wrist/forearm etc. tactics and strategy before this move may "vary" a bit among style.

4. the dragon sitting on the ground or chue di long. we may do a single leg split (die ca) or half squatting (pu bu). again exist in many styles and qi gong. In Yang Tai Ji, is called going downward or xia shi.

my point is that each posture may look alike or serve similar function. however, there are certain requirements and tactics and strategy may "vary" a bit in each style.

names and common postures are used or borrowed among all styles and qi gong.

but if you practice some of the styles, such as tai Ji or others, you would know what may be common, what may be varied.

--
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby SPJ on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:53 am

In Chen Tai Ji, the die ca similar to pic 4.

we actually drop to the ground "vertically" very fast. and with both fist hitting upward or one blocking and the other hitting upward.

In Ba Gua zhang, we usually use the forward palm to follow the extended front leg or lower piercing palm

--

1. my point is that the posture may look similar, the dynamic and function/utility may vary.

2. and also the move before and after the posture are different.

3. the tactics and strategy may vary.

--

4. if just look at a single posture one by one may lose sight of a broader view.

in ba gua zhang, especially, integration of these single palms is actually where the essence of change takes place.

--

we have to consider the mix and churn of all ingredients or formula/recipe.

not just examine each ingredient by itself alone only.

--

;)
Last edited by SPJ on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby Syd on Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:02 am

Good post SPJ,

In point of fact I have been doing my own research on comparisons of various Shaolin postures extant that have their mirror in Yang Style specifically with slight variation ... we know that Yang Luchan and the Wu's were all well versed in Shaolin arts common in Yongnian before Yang had cause to travel to Chen village. We also know that the Chens had Shaolin Arts like Red Fist ( Hong Chuan ) and the Pao Chui ( Cannon Fist ) et al which are still practiced at Shaolin to this day.

For instance ... in Xintai Mei ( Plum Blossom Boxing ) and Shaolin generally we have a posture called Pu Bu or the Flat Stance. You will observe that this is essentially the same as Snake Creeps Down of Taijiquan with some small changes in flavour from style to style.

Image shows Pu Bu from Xintai Mei.

Image

Here again we have postures from Xintai Mei ... look closely. The one on the left is obvious while the one on the right could be taken as a variation of "Stork Spreads Wings" or "Golden Cock Stands One Leg"

Image

Here is another example of "Stork Spreads Wings" from Plum Blossom Boxing.

Image

Here is some information about Plum Blossom Boxing which may be of great interest given the development of Yang Style and Yang Luchans synthesis of various arts in his invention of Taijiquan. My emphasis in bold.

According to records, Mei boxing was spread to Xingtai City of Hebei Province during the late Ming and early Qing dynasties. It Integrated the Eight Diagram of the Book of Changes into the boxing theory and the Five Elements of yin and yang into the movements, the boxing has been promoted and spread, and famous Mei boxing masters like Zhou Hong and Jing Tingbin have come forth.

The organization model of Mei boxing can be divided into two parts – literary and military, with the former leading the latter. The leading level of literary exercise gives emphasis on the research of theories which contain the essence of "Three Religions", responsible for the management of internal affairs of the boxing school; the pupils of the military exercise learn the boxing skills through the practice of martial arts. The level and form of the military practice can be divided into four parts, namely, posture, boxing forming, boxing wringing, and instruments. The movements of Mei boxing are unsophisticated and graceful, sturdy and powerful, so that they have not only appreciation value, but also practical function of striking and defending. Furthermore, both the guiding principle and movements follow the principles of "Five Elements" and "Eight Diagrams" in traditional Chinese culture which advocate "nurturing kungfu with literature, and aiding literature with kungfu", therefore, Mei boxing is also praised as "civil boxing".

Following the principle of "love the country and love the people", Xingtai Mei boxing has been spreading around Guangzong and Pingxiang for over 300 years. It has a clear master-pupil relation, and the practice has been handed down to the seventh generation with an extant Mei boxing chart. Generally, the master teaches the boxing skills by verbal instruction and personal example. Other than body-building effects, the practice of Mei boxing can also enrich the cultural life of the general public, and inspire the national spirit as well.


Things like this only serve to broaden ones view of the origins of Taijiquan both conceptually and historically - when taken into context with the many arts that already surrounded and pre-dated it' ... it seems that it was not something that just formed itself 'ex nihlo' but was rather far more heavily influenced by many commonly practiced arts of it's time.
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:06 am

cdobe wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:Here's my correspondence table that shows EXACTLY how each move in the Chen Yi lu (of today, since that's all we have to go by) follows exactly the Shaolin TZ Quan that has been preserved in henan area since before the Ming dynasty.

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAart ... nChart.htm

My table is being published in China in a new publication on possible origins of TJQ being printed now.
They told me that they can't believe how it is most obvious and all this time it was staring them in the face and they didn't know to look there.


Sal,
I wonder what the point of this table is. What does it mean for example when techniques appear in the same row ?
When I look at my Wu2 Taiji for example and compare it to the long form of Yang style, I find that the sequence and the techniques are corresponding quite well, although in some rows you would have to indicate that the techniques don't match. You can also match Wu3 and Sun style with Wu2 and Yang, but to a much lesser degree. If you used colors for example, say green for matching and red for 'not matching', there would be a lot of red already. Now if you take Yang and Wu2 and try to match it with Chen Taiji most of the rows would be red. You would only have a green row here and there inbetween (e.g. the Opening or Cloudhands). OTOH, I can easily take single movements from other arts like Bajiquan, Baguazhang, but also from Indonesian Silat or Japanese arts and match them with Taiji movements.
So I wonder about the criteria you use to put such a table together.

Thanks
CD


Hmm? The techniques that are in the same row are ones that ARE matching up, in posture and in function. Sometimes that posture is slightly different (stylistic differences, like languages have dialects) but in application and functionality, etc, they are the same. The table would be 90% green.

It's the fact that the movements of the different sets match in the same SEQUENTIAL order not just that their postures match (otherwise, sure you can find matching postures between any styles, the human body can only do so much. What makes it different is that the SEQUENCE of movements and postures is the same, that can not be coincidence).
This is what attracted the researchers in China to the table, that almost the whole sequence of movements matches between sets, from most primitive to most advanced way of moving. From proto-typical in the Shaolin Nei Gong and Tong Bei movements to typical in the TJQ movements.
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:09 am

Syd wrote:Good post SPJ,

In point of fact I have been doing my own research on comparisons of various Shaolin postures extant that have their mirror in Yang Style specifically with slight variation ... we know that Yang Luchan and the Wu's were all well versed in Shaolin arts common in Yongnian before Yang had cause to travel to Chen village. We also know that the Chens had Shaolin Arts like Red Fist ( Hong Chuan ) and the Pao Chui ( Cannon Fist ) et al which are still practiced at Shaolin to this day.

For instance ... in Xintai Mei ( Plum Blossom Boxing ) and Shaolin generally we have a posture called Pu Bu or the Flat Stance. You will observe that this is essentially the same as Snake Creeps Down of Taijiquan with some small changes in flavour from style to style.

Image shows Pu Bu from Xintai Mei. . .



What you are seeing is that Shaolin Hong Quan, Tai Zu Quan, TJQ, et al, AND Mei Hua Quan ALL use the 13 gong (5 elements / 8 trigrams) and as such all draw from the same original source of this 13 Gong: the Shaolin Rou Quan system (soft boxing), which has the Luohan 13 Gong, which is the same as the Qianzai Temple 13 tong Bei Gong, which is the same as the TJQ 13 Gong.

The postures all come from the same source.
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby Syd on Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:37 am

Yes ... exactly. So essentially we can see the origins of Taijiquan right there and there is absolutely NO mystery or secret hidden system lost to the mists of time ... it's hidden in plain sight.
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby Royal Dragon on Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:05 am

Syd wrote:Yes ... exactly. So essentially we can see the origins of Taijiquan right there and there is absolutely NO mystery or secret hidden system lost to the mists of time ... it's hidden in plain sight.


Reply]
That is the way i see it. I think Sal's chart is a spark of genius. He is the first person to ever put all that together. What he has done, is a genealogical chart for the entire family line, from Tong Bei to modern taiji.

Now, that is onlly one family of styles. I bet an entire separate chart can be done for other families as well, like the Moslem arts, and Hakka styles too.

In the end what it would most likely show, is that over all there are only a few styles, with wide variation in the way thier technology is practiced.
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby Dmitri on Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:23 am

For those unfamiliar with Jarek's research, he also analyzed that correlation, a long time ago:
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji ... nuals.html
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby sdf on Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:22 am

salcanzonieri wrote:The story that Chen comes from Gen Qi's book is a crock of crap.



and the fact that Chen Wangtin had an army training also crap?
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Re: It's a Ming thing ...

Postby Royal Dragon on Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:42 am

My guess is Chen Wang Ting was exposed to Shaolin Tai Tzu through the military. Some disagree with me though, because Shaolin Tai tzu was pretty wide spread in that whole area by then.

Either way, just by LOOKING at the Chen style set it is clear Chen Wang Ting knew Tai Tzu Chang Chuan well enough to have learned the sequence of the form. This is significant because forms were primarily taught last in those days.

Also, both major taiji styles of the time (Chen & Zhao Bao) are totally all built on all the techniques found in the Tai tzu style, specifically the sets Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, Lao Hong Chuan, Da Hong Chuan.
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