Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby JuanM on Tue May 13, 2008 12:14 pm

I'll probably have the honor of being the first post to be moved to BTDT but I'll try and post it here for the time being.

I want to know again why our arts cannot be successful or have not being successful in combat sports. Aside from the "deadly" factor (which is a major excuse used in our arts) in that the rules do not allow for breaking arms, biting, kicking the nuts or eye gauging. Why can't an IMA guy take his art and make it fit within the rule framework and be successful in sports competition? I mean, kicking someone in the nuts, biting or sticking your finger in one's eye isn't exactly high level secret stuff that combat sports competitors wouldn't be able to do in self defense situations as well.
JuanM
Great Old One
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:57 am

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby mixjourneyman on Tue May 13, 2008 12:19 pm

It has just as much to do with the fact that internal martial arts practitioners on average don't like to fight as much as combat sports people. There are a few people who do and maybe they should go in the ring, but for the most part its just not important to most IMA'ists.
I personally don't feel the need to risk my personal well being to prove that I can whoop some other guys ass. I'm just happy to practice my art quietly and test my skills against friends in such a way as to minimize injuries. :)
mixjourneyman
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4593
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:30 am
Location: Guelph/Montreal

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby Darthwing Teorist on Tue May 13, 2008 12:29 pm

Well, the answer is not complicated. Because except a few exceptions, CMA do not have a sport format, especially sport combat.


Think about it: when you say combat sport what comes to mind? Wrestling, boxing, fencing, judo, BJJ, Karate, Kickboxing, San Da, Muay Thai, TKD, Sambo etc.

These are disciplines that for all purposes became martial sports. Yes, a few teach traditional curriculum as well, but it is mostly done on a school by school basis. Then, because of their sport background these arts quickly adapted to a MMA format (which I assume you imply by "combatsports"). These arts initially became very performant in their particular format, because the people developed certain attributes to a very high degree encouraged and protected by their competition ruleset. Of course, these attributes are transferable to Da Streetz and the Octagon, but adjustments have to be made to the training. This is basically why these guys are good fighters.

So for those who want their art to become more succesful in combat sports, you have to create an organization for your art that promotes combat in your particular format (that has to be defined). Combat sports give you a good basis for fighting, but there is a real danger that the competitive aspect of it overshadows the original purpose of the art.

Personally, I like a balance: to train for self-defense using sparring as a vehicle for developing certain attributes (and for the fun of it). However, training outside this format is essential IMO for a well balanced development to reach my goal of teh de4dly.
Last edited by Darthwing Teorist on Tue May 13, 2008 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
И ам тхе террор тхат флапс ин тхе нигхт! И ам тхе црамп тхат руинс ёур форм! И ам... ДАРКWИНГ ДУЦК!
User avatar
Darthwing Teorist
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5274
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:09 pm
Location: half a meter from my monitor

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby strawdog on Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm

Because people give up in trying to get the IMA to work. They either go into combat sports or they don't fight at all and do it for health or other esoteric crap.

My suggestion is to use the combat sports format as a laboratory for you to develop the skill in your IMA. Sparring you IMA buddies won't help. You have to spar with people who have zero respect for you or your art. You have to get over all the failures and all the criticisms and all the people laughing at you for trying to "make that shit" work.
User avatar
strawdog
Great Old One
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:58 am
Location: Long Beach

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby sdf on Tue May 13, 2008 12:53 pm

JuanM wrote:
I want to know again why our arts cannot be successful or have not being successful in combat sports.


I don't think it's quite correct representation. Sanda/sanshou is a sport which based on CMA
Last edited by sdf on Tue May 13, 2008 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sdf
Santi
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:26 am

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby sdf on Tue May 13, 2008 1:05 pm

strawdog wrote: Sparring you IMA buddies won't help. You have to spar with people who have zero respect for you or your art. You have to get over all the failures and all the criticisms and all the people laughing at you for trying to "make that shit" work.


Hmmm why sparring with my IMA buddies won't help? Frankly I don't see any sense to sparr with people who have zero respect for me or for my art. Why would I even care about them?
sdf
Santi
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:26 am

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby nianfong on Tue May 13, 2008 1:13 pm

you want to spar with people who want to show you that their style is better. otherwise you will never become able to use it against a truly resisting opponent.
Frankly I'm surprised there aren't more xingyi guys out there in combat sports. there are baji guys, and xingyi is very similar.
User avatar
nianfong
Administrator
 
Posts: 4575
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:28 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby JuanM on Tue May 13, 2008 1:21 pm

sdf wrote:
JuanM wrote:
I want to know again why our arts cannot be successful or have not being successful in combat sports.


I don't think it's quite correct representation. Sanda/sanshou is a sport which based on CMA


Sanda is kickboxing.
JuanM
Great Old One
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:57 am

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby JuanM on Tue May 13, 2008 1:23 pm

Fong,

I hear alot of the guys comparing Xingi to boxing (or at least to some of the older boxers). Why don't more Xingi guys get out there and test their stuff in the sports combat arena?
JuanM
Great Old One
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:57 am

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby jpaton on Tue May 13, 2008 1:35 pm

my guess would be: not enough cardio, not enough repetitive drilling of simple effective techniques, not enough sparring in class.
jpaton
Mingjing
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 9:42 am

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby Darthwing Teorist on Tue May 13, 2008 2:03 pm

JuanM wrote:Fong,

I hear alot of the guys comparing Xingi to boxing (or at least to some of the older boxers). Why don't more Xingi guys get out there and test their stuff in the sports combat arena?



Like I said, I believe it to have something to do with the organization from which you are a part of: you join a martial art to learn. Usually people who like sport will go into a sport martial art. Also, if you do not have easy access to fighting competitions and if the school is not geared toward that, it is less likely that you will go out there and fight in a format that has nothing to do with your art and you may also be disadvantaged by the rules. So you stick with what your school has to offer for a long time. Think about the difference between your Tai Chi and your Muay Thai school: don't you feel encouraged to fight at the MT school? I am sure that it is easier to fight at MT competitions that come from the odd CMA school and try to join competitions out of the blue.

Now, I agree with strawdog and fong, that true fighting spirit transcedents styles and that if you really have a passion about fighting you go out there and test your shit against anyone. However, even in true fighting styles, there are not many who go outside their style to test their skill against other martial arts. At least not in a very regular way, unless they become MMA fighters.
И ам тхе террор тхат флапс ин тхе нигхт! И ам тхе црамп тхат руинс ёур форм! И ам... ДАРКWИНГ ДУЦК!
User avatar
Darthwing Teorist
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5274
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:09 pm
Location: half a meter from my monitor

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby JessOBrien on Tue May 13, 2008 2:05 pm

Juan I think part of it is that Chinese martial arts contain a lot under their roof. There is physical, mental, even meditative training. Each martial art comes out of a specific time and place, with specialized techniques for particular usage.

Martial arts is a much bigger category than martial sports. Sports have a match that you train for. Martial arts has many different purposes, many of which aren't suitable for the ring.

Look at something like Tai Chi. It's a village martial arts that people practiced for defense against bandits after a long day in the fields. You don't jump rope, you don't hit bags, and you don't fight in rings. There are social, cultural and personal development elements which are considered to be every bit as important to the art as the self-defense elements. Someone who wants to explore all the elements present in this art, or even most of them, won't have time to train for the sport format. Not to say that they can't fight in a sport arena if they choose to. Someone who does tennis can also fight in a sport match, judo, mma, whatever, if they train for it.

I've sparred with Muay Thai friends before, and learned a lot. To fight their game in their ring with their protocols is a great learning experience. But it's apples and oranges, Chinese martial arts comes from a very different place than martial sports, and is useful in different ways. To succeed in Muay Thai takes dedicated training in Muay Thai. When Fairtex sent their guys out into pro boxing they had one hell of a time. Not because they weren't world class atheletes, but because each sport trains very specific attributes. You can't just jump from one to the other, it's like starting entirely over.

My main point is that martial arts are not martial sports, they are two different worlds. There is some cross over, but I think it's more worthwhile to spend our time analyzing and exploring the factors that make Chinese martial arts unique and useful to our lives. If you want to play MMA, you gotta train for it. If you want to play chess you gotta train for that. It makes no sense to use an "art" to get involved in a "sport". Again, some elements may cross over, but to achieve ring success you need to focus on the specific ring in question.

Just my take on a good question.

-Jess O
JessOBrien
Great Old One
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:04 am

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby cerebus on Tue May 13, 2008 2:09 pm

Juan. I'll be fighting at the Lei Tai Championships in July. I train Hsing- as well as some Bagua and Taichi. I would be far more active if I could afford it. As for there not being a format for TCMA, that's what Lei Tai matches are all about. In fact, such fighters as Mike Patterson's Hsing-I and Bagua people dominated the Lei Tai competition in the U.S. and even on a global level for several years.

TCMAs ARE successful in combat sports, IF you have a trainer who knows how to prepare you for such competitions AND you have the will power to undergo that training.
User avatar
cerebus
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4448
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:54 am
Location: Ringsted, IA

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby sdf on Tue May 13, 2008 2:35 pm

nianfong wrote:you want to spar with people who want to show you that their style is better. otherwise you will never become able to use it against a truly resisting opponent.

Really? What would I care if somebody things that his style is better? There other means of training with truly resisting opponent.

Frankly I'm surprised there aren't more xingyi guys out there in combat sports. there are baji guys, and xingyi is very similar.

Is there any sports where people fight without gloves? I believe there is some difference between bare knuckles and gloves.
Ask Kimbo Slice I guess he is one from few MMA fighters who can tell difference. :)
sdf
Santi
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:26 am

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby sdf on Tue May 13, 2008 2:38 pm

JuanM wrote:
Sanda is kickboxing.



Well in my younger years I did both sanda and sanshou practicing only TCMA. I have never done any kind of boxing or kick boxing, but I've seen a lot of them on the ring though :)
To me sanda and sanshou are the set of rules for fighting - not the style :)
sdf
Santi
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:26 am

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests