Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby JuanM on Tue May 13, 2008 6:20 pm

sdf wrote:
JuanM wrote:
???

Sorry that's an odd comparison.


I don't think so. I've been training all my life to fight without wearing any gloves. In fact, I have never punched a bag with any kind of protection such as gloves and others.(sure my fists were specially prepared) Now Juan let's imagine that you and me together go to full contact without any kind of protection or glove. Considering that we are not amateur fighters (meaning we know how to punch pretty good), I guarantee that most likely after such fight either you or me (or even both of us) are going to be badly injured.

P.S. I used to fight with little or no protection. From my personal experience after one such fight it took me about three month to recover.


Okay, but what does this really have to do with the ability to be successful in sports combat. I am not questioning the validity of IMA as a self defense tool. Nevermind tho, some people have put up some very good responses to my question.
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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby Formosa Neijia on Tue May 13, 2008 6:45 pm

Taijiquan has it's own sport venue: push hands competitions. These were made by taiji people, for taiji people.

But most of the time when you bring them up, you hear "that's not taiji, they use too much force."

When you ask why these critics don't go out there and use their superior skills to conquer all that supposedly low-level stuff, all you're hear is silence.

If you can't get taiji people to take their own sport venue seriously, then how can you get them to take other sports venues seriously?

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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby OldRed on Tue May 13, 2008 7:09 pm

Relevant experience.
If CMA is to be used combat sports, then they have to be learned from someone with experience in doing that. There aren't many CMA teachers around with that experience. In fact, there aren't many CMA teachers around with much fighting experience at all. Sure, we all here lots of things about isolated incidents, but how many people know many CMA teachers who fight or have fought (documented and easily researchable) frequently?

In part, this is why I like judo so much these days. Shiai/competition is a key piece in the learning process. The model of uchikomi-repetative drilling, randori-sparring, and shiai-contest is a nice one for CMA people to emulate if it doesn't rile them up for beind of Japanese origin. I sure wish that was the model that was followed when I was a youngster first learning CMA instead of form, theory, bs, and stories.
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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby cerebus on Tue May 13, 2008 7:41 pm

OldRed wrote:Relevant experience.
If CMA is to be used combat sports, then they have to be learned from someone with experience in doing that. There aren't many CMA teachers around with that experience. In fact, there aren't many CMA teachers around with much fighting experience at all. Sure, we all here lots of things about isolated incidents, but how many people know many CMA teachers who fight or have fought (documented and easily researchable) frequently?

In part, this is why I like judo so much these days. Shiai/competition is a key piece in the learning process. The model of uchikomi-repetative drilling, randori-sparring, and shiai-contest is a nice one for CMA people to emulate if it doesn't rile them up for beind of Japanese origin. I sure wish that was the model that was followed when I was a youngster first learning CMA instead of form, theory, bs, and stories.


And this is the reason why I enjoy the Lei Tai fighting format. They use open-hand gloves, allow grabs, open-hand strikes, and (in the international-level matches) knee and elbow strikes, as well as all the same things that San Shou allows. It's probably the best, most realistic venue (outside of MMA) for TCMA people to get fight experience. And sport competition in general is the ONLY legal way to gain a good deal of fight experience.

I feel people should find the most realistic sport venue they can and train for it. Afterall, the techniques allowed in most sport competitions are ones which are basic to most styles of Kung Fu. If you can't even fight with your most basic techniques in the relatively safe venue of a sport match, how can you expect that you'll be able to use advanced or more "dangerous" techniques in the far more difficult "street" situation?
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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby bailewen on Tue May 13, 2008 7:43 pm

how many people know many CMA teachers who fight or have fought (documented and easily researchable) frequently?


I can name one right here in San Francisco. I train there about twice a week and his guys fight in local cage matches pretty regularly.

White Eyebrow + Dragon Boxing at the "underground kung fu" school on Folsom St. between 4th and 5th st.



Zac has a record like 3-0 or something.

Zhong Luo's school always does well in the cage.
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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby OldRed on Tue May 13, 2008 7:56 pm

Omar---one? haha I bet you know A LOT more who don't at all... Kudos to those people, too bad they are in the minority. Heck in and around San Fran there has to be a significant number of CMA people and schools. What about them?

cerebus---I did the Lei Tai too, just not all the rules and the equipment sucks.
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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby Mut on Tue May 13, 2008 7:57 pm

Afterall, the techniques allowed in most sport competitions are ones which are basic to most styles of Kung Fu. If you can't even fight with your most basic techniques in the relatively safe venue of a sport match, how can you expect that you'll be able to use advanced or more "dangerous" techniques in the far more difficult "street" situation?


gotta agree there
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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby cerebus on Tue May 13, 2008 8:27 pm

Hi OldRed. When did you compete in the Lei Tai, and how did you do? Yeah, the face-cages interfere with vision and the gloves leave your frontal knuckles exposed for injury on the face-cage, but that's just something people need to get used to. I now find that sparring without the face cage is like removing a blindfold... ;D
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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby OldRed on Tue May 13, 2008 9:12 pm

cerebus wrote:Hi OldRed. When did you compete in the Lei Tai, and how did you do? Yeah, the face-cages interfere with vision and the gloves leave your frontal knuckles exposed for injury on the face-cage, but that's just something people need to get used to. I now find that sparring without the face cage is like removing a blindfold... ;D


Cerebus, been done with fighting for a couple of years now. I'm getting older and have some health issues that make it too dicey for me. My last fights were in '05, and they were rough, faced some tough characters and the best I got was third place. Ufortunately I was not into lei tai format until too late in life, and while there are exceptions, mostly its a younger person's game. Prior to that I fought some amatuer kick boxing in the late 1980's, and a few back yard matches when that BJJ stuff was first becoming popular. Not in any way claiming to be some fighting champion, I always did it to test myslef and have fun. Nowadays my fighting is limited to some fairly vigorous randori and "rolling".

Regarding the face cage, I still hate that thing. Seen faces busted pretty bad right through it. If I was to offer some changes to lei tai it would be better head gear, allowing the knee to touch the lei tai for throws, allowing sacrifice throws, and some kind of jacket for grip fighting. More like daido juku or combat sambo.
Last edited by OldRed on Tue May 13, 2008 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby bruce on Tue May 13, 2008 9:48 pm

strawdog wrote:Because people give up in trying to get the IMA to work. They either go into combat sports or they don't fight at all and do it for health or other esoteric crap.

My suggestion is to use the combat sports format as a laboratory for you to develop the skill in your IMA. Sparring you IMA buddies won't help. You have to spar with people who have zero respect for you or your art. You have to get over all the failures and all the criticisms and all the people laughing at you for trying to "make that shit" work.


to add to that i think it is very important to spar with (skilled fighters) people who have no understanding of your art.
i think that is a good test for what works and what does not.
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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby Formosa Neijia on Tue May 13, 2008 10:48 pm

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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby bailewen on Tue May 13, 2008 10:52 pm

OldRed wrote:Omar---one? haha I bet you know A LOT more who don't at all... Kudos to those people, too bad they are in the minority. Heck in and around San Fran there has to be a significant number of CMA people and schools. What about them?


Actually, this is the only school I know that is doing MMA but I get full respect from the MMA people at that school for what I am my friends do because they have sparred with some of us and been suitably impressed. I have another group of people I work with on occasion that includes a bunch of cops and one of my buddies just came back from Los Angeles where he fought an exhibition match with Frank Dux. Got students and assistant teachers for Sonny Umpad, a teacher/friend of mine who used to do bodyguard work for folks over at Grace Memorial and so on.

In San Francisco this isn't even an issue. It's like this whole weird political thing I picked up online while I was living in China and when I got back to San Francisco it was like the whole rivalry didn't exist. TCMA is the bad fucking boy on the block in this town.

Between the Hung Sing boys, Zhong Luo and his White Eyebrow / Dragon school and Chris Chan with half of SFPD vice training in his school, sparring with professional fighters these days....pfft....Ain't no inferiority complex happening in SF.

This whole "debate" just faded into nothingnness for me about 6 months after returning to my old stomping grounds.
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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby Ian on Wed May 14, 2008 1:12 am

sdf wrote:
strawdog wrote: Sparring you IMA buddies won't help. You have to spar with people who have zero respect for you or your art. You have to get over all the failures and all the criticisms and all the people laughing at you for trying to "make that shit" work.


Hmmm why sparring with my IMA buddies won't help? Frankly I don't see any sense to sparr with people who have zero respect for me or for my art. Why would I even care about them?



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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby iwalkthecircle on Wed May 14, 2008 1:16 am

moving pushingHands is what most IMA considered as combat....
IMO this is the wrong set of mind.
this year at the arnold classic 2008 drHuang tries to run a pushingHand tournament.
only 2 people showed up.
right next to the tournament there are stages for kickBoxing ring, UFC style fight, judo, BJJ (gi & no gi), TKD......
most people took one look at the single match of PH, and ask what is the point of PH?


even the sport that I truly love, SC, only trains throwing aspect of real combat sport.
sunDa might be the closest to combat. out of all people that trains for sunDa or layTai, people are so focus on winning they fail to bring out the flavor of BGZ, TCC, mantis, & XYC out.
if the only TCMA school that is fighting in combatSport does not bring out flavor of TCMA, why would people think TCMA is useful?
for example XYC guys are famous for how hard they hit, howEver, ever seen a XYC guy going against a boxing guy that still retains the flavor of XYC?
of what use is TCMA training when you train in one way and fight in another way?
Last edited by iwalkthecircle on Wed May 14, 2008 3:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tell me again why TCMA's aren't successful in combatsport

Postby johnwang on Wed May 14, 2008 1:42 am

I think most people train in CMA are "generalize" instead of "specialize". This is mainly the side effect from the solo form training instead of the drill training. Even people train drills, they may not spend enough time to drill some moves to the death. I had many discussions with my CMA friends in the past. I always asked, "What moves are you working on lately?" Most responses were, "I just work on my forms that I know and nothing particular."

If we can ask ourselves an honest question such as, "What's my door guarding moves - moves that may save me from a life and death situation?" We then may have the right direction toward our training program.
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